Who thinks Australia and NZ have got it right ?

[marilenagrace]

What do you think ? Do you think that keeping everyone out of the country is the right approach long term to deal with covid ? Do you wish we did that here in the UK ?

I don’t think I’ve seen any scientist say we will get global herd immunity so if that’s their long term strategy they may need to rethink.

Herd immunity is achieved quickest by natural immunity plus a very high level of vaccinations. We should achieve that here. We have a huge vaccine uptake and unfortunately many people have had the disease but that will give them some good immunity.

For Australia how will you vaccinate ‘most’ of your population? Kids won’t be vaccinated? There are many people who will refuse (maybe more than here? What’s the anti-vax situation like there?)

I hope you can get to the required level of vaccinations to achieve herd immunity but with no natural immunity within the population it’s a tall order.

International law is only as effective as a government wants to adhere to it. The moment national security is mentioned international laws mean nothing. Australia had Tampa, America had Trump....independent of international laws, the rule of law of any country gets bypassed by national security interests. Which means that in effect, none of us have real rights. We may want to think so but we don't.

Indeed, but saying ‘there are too few remedies in Australia for breaches of international law’ are not the same as saying that those rights do not exist.

In the US, the Bill of Rights and in the UK the Human Rights act provide greater legal protection from their citizens against the whims of their governments to trample those rights. It’s a gap in Australian law.

Zero COVID isn’t a realistic strategy for any country in the longer term.

Again, Australia doesn't have a Zero Covid policy. We never had it. We have Covid infections from return travellers. The aim was to have zero local transmission which is why so much emphasis, work and resources have been given to track and trace teams to get it right.

The lockdown in Victoria (Melbourne) happened because the quarantine safety procedures didn't work and track and trace failed (another issue to be discussed if someone wants to discuss it).'

It's funny that many of you forget that the U turn the UK government took in Christmas was to follow Australia's policy. Close borders, quarantine people arriving in the UK and still now you don't have open borders to travel overseas. Same policy as Australia but a year too late and when local transmission was out of control.

Unfortunately for Australia, we are dependent of vaccines arriving from Europe so we are going to take 6-7 months longer to get there. We are vaccinating steadily, over 70s, health workers, quarantine personal, vulnerable and disabled are being vaccinated. The issue is with the Pzifer vaccine and the under 55s, they'll have to wait until the end of year until we get stocks. Latest news if the Pzifer and Moderna could be produced in Australia as Victoria is giving funding to do so.

I truly don't understand why so many of you think Australia is not vaccinating.

So Aus/NZ are waiting for ‘global herd immunity’.

Except we don’t actually know that.

Their governments have not articulated their long term goal or strategy for reaching it, so people are filling in the gaps for themselves and convincing themselves it’s true.

It would be amusing if it wasn’t so worrying.

I truly don't understand why so many of you think Australia is not vaccinating.

Can you give us an example of the posts you’re talking about? I haven’t seen them and I’ve been on the thread a while; I’d certainly challenge if I’d seen it.

Also could you share those stats on outbound tourism?

I really doubt in 6 months you’ll have vaccinated over 80% of your population (the required level for herd immunity) and have borders open. I guess you need to have some hope though as the lack of a strategy or timeframe is hard.

@Alondra

Zero COVID isn’t a realistic strategy for any country in the longer term.

Again, Australia doesn't have a Zero Covid policy. We never had it. We have Covid infections from return travellers. The aim was to have zero local transmission which is why so much emphasis, work and resources have been given to track and trace teams to get it right.

The lockdown in Victoria (Melbourne) happened because the quarantine safety procedures didn't work and track and trace failed (another issue to be discussed if someone wants to discuss it).'

It's funny that many of you forget that the U turn the UK government took in Christmas was to follow Australia's policy. Close borders, quarantine people arriving in the UK and still now you don't have open borders to travel overseas. Same policy as Australia but a year too late and when local transmission was out of control.

Unfortunately for Australia, we are dependent of vaccines arriving from Europe so we are going to take 6-7 months longer to get there. We are vaccinating steadily, over 70s, health workers, quarantine personal, vulnerable and disabled are being vaccinated. The issue is with the Pzifer vaccine and the under 55s, they'll have to wait until the end of year until we get stocks. Latest news if the Pzifer and Moderna could be produced in Australia as Victoria is giving funding to do so.

I truly don't understand why so many of you think Australia is not vaccinating.

It is but when will the population be vaccinated by?

@ButtonMoony Do you really, really, honestly think that 130,000 people died who wouldn't have died anyway? Really?

Did you actually write that? You believe that all the people who died of covid would have died of something else anyway in the same time frame? The young, people with “just” high blood pressure as their only underlying condition? Those thousands of NHS staff off work with long covid, thousands off work for months. Meaning longer waiting times when things get better.

Great that your life is normal, some of us it’s still very abnormal for a good reason.

Of course Aus has got it right waiting for a vaccine. They’ve had normal life.
You know natural heard immunity doesn’t last? Ask the people on their second or third dose of covid. Antibodies don’t last. Hence why it’s shit. FFS.

Can you give us an example of the posts you’re talking about? I haven’t seen them and I’ve been on the thread a while; I’d certainly challenge if I’d seen it.

I strongly recommend you to read the thread.

Australia Tourism Statistics 2020

Australian outbound tourism statistics

In 2019, Australian residents undertook 11,300,000 million outbound international trips.

New Zealand was the leading destination for Australian tourists with a total of 1.5 million short-term trips in 2019. Indonesia was the second leading destination for Australian tourists, with a total of 1.4 million trips in 2019.

www.budgetdirect.com.au/travel-insurance/research/tourism-statistics.html#:~:text=In%202019%2C%20Australian%20residents%20undertook,1.4%20million%20trips%20in%202019.

Australia has a population of 25 Million. About half the population travelled overseas in 2019.

If you’re producing your own you could have set up the same as other countries couldn’t you? Was there a reason to wait. Other than not feeling urgency that is.

Also this two to three years people keep mentioning if you’re vaccinating and done then why keep waiting?

Or are you saying you won’t be vaccinated for that long

I really doubt in 6 months you’ll have vaccinated over 80% of your population (the required level for herd immunity) and have borders open. I guess you need to have some hope though as the lack of a strategy or timeframe is hard.

Particularly when 19% of the population is under 15, reaching that 80% level this year (or possibly even next, given the early stage of Moderna and Pfizer paed trials) does seem somewhat challenging.

I strongly recommend you to read the thread.

As I said, I have. People have said that Australia isn’t vaccinating particularly quickly. That’s quite different to not vaccinating.

Thanks for the tourism stats - those align pretty closely to the figures I shared. So 0.4 trips per head for Australians a year vs 1.1 for people in Britain? So I think you were a bit off in suggesting that people in Australia travel abroad as much as people in the U.K.

T-cells to SARS have been shown to last at least 17 years.... it’s not the antibodies that are key really it’s t-cell immunity which can be very long lasting. There’s definitely a benefit to natural immunity. The virus then becomes endemic rather than a ‘novel’ virus that none of the population has been exposed to.

Marsha

We are not producing our own yet. Funding is being given to do so but it will take a while to get production ready.

I think Australia will open borders next year, news are that international travel will probably open for business at the end of this year. We'll see.

When I mentioned to 2-3 years is to international travel without restrictions. We are all going to have a period of vaccine certificates and tests until the majority of the global population is vaccinated.

So I think you were a bit off in suggesting that people in Australia travel abroad as much as people in the U.K.

I also said we were luck we had great weather and beaches unlike the UK.

I also said we were luck we had great weather and beaches unlike the UK.

Indeed. Having lived there most of my life, I’m aware and took no issue with that - just the statement that outbound travel levels were similar.

@Alondra

Marsha

We are not producing our own yet. Funding is being given to do so but it will take a while to get production ready.

I think Australia will open borders next year, news are that international travel will probably open for business at the end of this year. We'll see.

When I mentioned to 2-3 years is to international travel without restrictions. We are all going to have a period of vaccine certificates and tests until the majority of the global population is vaccinated.

Great to read. We’ll be vaccinated here by summer. I’ve already had first and second in July.

No issue with vaccine passports to travel. We’ll be used to it by then.

Production of our own only started last month, and is behind but will hopefully ramp up to the 1mill per week they were targeting, but we also didn't receive around 3 million doses that were expected from AZ i January/ February time.

Phase 1a and b are under way, all over 50's are able to request it from start of May. As I mentioned earlier, October was the original date for all adults, there cant be a new definitive date till there's confirmation on Pfizer availability.

I think they’ve got it right. I recently moved to NZ after being away and people just don’t have that longer term psychological damage/twitchyness and associated low level mental health problems people who have lived through Covid have, and I’m constantly surprised by how many talk about lockdown as a novelty given it’s length. I hate to say it too but there’s a real grumpiness/sense of being worn down that I see coming from ppl in the Usk and the US that is less obvious in downunder as the people haven’t been through as much because of being able to live normal lives.

@ReadWritePlay

I think they’ve got it right. I recently moved to NZ after being away and people just don’t have that longer term psychological damage/twitchyness and associated low level mental health problems people who have lived through Covid have, and I’m constantly surprised by how many talk about lockdown as a novelty given it’s length. I hate to say it too but there’s a real grumpiness/sense of being worn down that I see coming from ppl in the Usk and the US that is less obvious in downunder as the people haven’t been through as much because of being able to live normal lives.

Have you seen what’s happening in the U.K.?

People are out having a good time with friends now. Lots of us.

I find this post sweeping and a bit bonkers tbh

Maybe wishful thinking who knows.

And when it comes to fear of Covid and keeping it out to be safe well that’s not coming from here is it.

You can see we’ve moved passed that mindset. Vaccinated normality is the preference now.

[quote HedgePutty]**@ButtonMoony* Do you really, really, honestly think that 130,000 people died who wouldn't have died anyway? Really?*

Did you actually write that? You believe that all the people who died of covid would have died of something else anyway in the same time frame? The young, people with “just” high blood pressure as their only underlying condition? Those thousands of NHS staff off work with long covid, thousands off work for months. Meaning longer waiting times when things get better.

Great that your life is normal, some of us it’s still very abnormal for a good reason.[/quote]
Who said all? You did, noone else did.

Read what you quoted again

So I think you were a bit off in suggesting that people in Australia travel abroad as much as people in the U.K.

Very true but to put it in perspective going from Syd to Perth or Melb to Darwin is the equivalent of someone from the UK travelling several countries over. I would travel overseas but in-between trips I would have a few domestic trips to GBR, Daintree, Kakadu, Katherine, Broome, Tassie etc. So if you look at air miles as opposed to international trips we would probably be equivalent? Heck even road trips as vacations, they are pretty popular here and are usually 3000-4000km. Drive straight for 10 days non stop out of the UK and you will have passed through several countries. Making out Australians don’t travel much based solely on international trips isn’t quite right. That’s why lack of international travel doesn’t have quite the same sting for a lot of people in Australia that it has for people in many other countries. Plus the grey nomad factor.... The main reason Australians did as much international travel as they used to was $$. It was much cheaper to travel overseas to Bali, Thailand, Vietnam etc than to holiday domestically. People seem to be quite willing to stick their hands in their pockets currently though.

Very true but to put it in perspective going from Syd to Perth or Melb to Darwin is the equivalent of someone from the UK travelling several countries over.

As I said - I lived in Australia most of my life, I’m totally aware of this. Particularly as I didn’t grow up in a major city well-served by commercial airlines.

Seriously, my only issue was with a poster confidently telling someone else that they were totally wrong, Australians travel specifically abroad every bit as much as people in the UK. I was curious as that didn’t chime with what I’d seen. And it turns out that statement was false.

I haven’t said that Australians don’t

That’s seriously all I was posting about. I haven’t said that Australians don’t travel much. Not whether it’s good or bad, not the reasons for it. Just a bit bored of posters dismissing someone’s argument with a blithe assertion of fact that has absolutely no association with actual facts. So I thought I’d do the research, and ask the question.

You’ll have gathered from my previous posts that I quite like evidence - both in policy making and in MN debates...