Who thinks Australia and NZ have got it right ?

[marilenagrace]

What do you think ? Do you think that keeping everyone out of the country is the right approach long term to deal with covid ? Do you wish we did that here in the UK ?

Is the strategy going forward still zero Covid?

This is my beef with Australia. Not the way they’ve handled it to date but the absence of an objective from here and forward plan to reach that objective. Dan Tehan underlined that lack of objective with some very waffly answers on the Today programme this morning.

And as I’m a citizen who still pays taxes in Australia, and all my family apart from my husband and sons are there, I hope I’m permitted an opinion.

@DetMcNulty

I doubt Sco Mo would ever do anything altruistically, but I don't think Australia should now be top of queue for any other vaccines just because the AZ one isn't working out as planned. We can wait it out.

What is happening with AZ? Did production start and stop?

Where were you in process

@eaglejulesk

There will be cases but vaccinations are now at a point where the risk to life or overwhelming the health service no longer outweighs the distress caused to people by not being able to travel.

I don't believe Australia are at that level of vaccinations yet, so you can't expect them to do the same as where you are.

Exactly. The thread was about if they had got it right.

They got phase one right, which was contain the virus whilst giving yourselves time to plan a way forward and vaccinate your population.

Phase two was getting that plan and policies in place. That bit I haven't seen any evidence of them doing right and in six months when other developed countries are pretty much back to normal I have a feeling they will be looking out at the rest of the world and feeling a bit jealous.

They had a chance to win massively with this given their fairly unique ability to close borders but appear (and I might be proven wrong) to have failed in phase 2 and just be waiting for the rest of the world to fix it and then let us back in at some point in the future.

We can wait it out.

As long as one of the elements of ‘wait it out’ is ‘bin the rights of citizens abroad’, I’d rather the government didn’t wait it out too long tbh.

I completely understand your frustration @JassyRadlett

It’s all well and good people claiming ‘everything is fine over there’ and how awful it has been over here (it has). That’s very short sighted though. If Covid is going nowhere and will eventually be endemic around the world, zero Covid is a tough strategy and needs a very clear long term plan on how to achieve that forever. Otherwise what’s your back up plan?

The original aim was to vaccinate all adults by October, they now don't have a revised date as yet. It's being offered to those over 70, healthcare / frontline workers, Aboriginal and Torres strait islanders who are over 55 and others with underlying illnesses.

Some of what was expected to come from AZ didn't, partly due to the EU. Domestic production only started in March, so is still ramping up and hasn't got to where they wanted (1 million a week).

The mass vaccination centres are opening up now, hopefully things will speed up, but those under 30 I think will need to wait until we have Pfizer jab available. 40 million have been ordered, but there's not a lot of info on what's available there, and when we'll get more. This is where I think we may be (rightly) low down in the priority list.

I agree I think that they both got the first bit right - the way they both reacted at the start was absolutely the right decision and was handled very well.

The problem is now they need to look towards the future - it is clear from the way that the rest of the world reacted that Covid isnt going anywhere and it will become an endemic virus. They have created an environment of Zero Covid at all costs and even with an effective and efficient vaccination programme how realistic is that.

So they both need to figure out what the next stage is - I think they have reached a holding pattern phase and need to probably plan for the next

The reality is that a Govnt works for its people I.e. public servants. This means 2 things:
Working to achieve what the majority of people consider is best for them.
Ensuring that it’s stacked so that they are best servicing the majority of people they believe are their voter base as opposed to the oppositions voter base.

The fact is, the majority of voters don’t have a need to go overseas and are basically indicating they are happy to wait it out.
The fact is, the majority of voters don’t have people stuck overseas they are trying to get home.
The fact is, the people stuck overseas are a minority in terms of voter numbers.

If you add all that up ........ it starts to make it extremely tough for Govnt to go against what the majority of people, and indeed the majority of voter base for current govnt, are indicating they want. Why would they sacrifice their chance at majority votes to keep a minority happy? We can layer all the other obstacles, including aspects such as Indigenous, general pop vax refusal/preference, into this but at the core it makes it quite hard for a public service to work against the want of the majority. Even if that want doesn’t entirely make sense.

If you add all that up ........ it starts to make it extremely tough for Govnt to go against what the majority of people, and indeed the majority of voter base for current govnt, are indicating they want.

Yes, that is my great worry about them delaying stating their long term objective and high level plan to within months of a federal election - you are much more likely to get populist policies rather than science-based policies.

While governments are answerable to their citizens, my own view has long been that sometimes governments need to make policies that are in the best long term interests of the country, based on evidence rather than a populist show of hands on each one. Some of those are unpopular (and I’ve been at the pointy end of more than one of those working in public policy in both Australia and the UK.)

And thinking about it I’ve also been at the pointy end of some policies driven by populism! While neither is fun the evidence-based policies are almost invariably objectively better - and usually more popular - in the long run.

The populist policies have a funny habit of going alarmingly wrong or at best achieving not very much for huge inputs.

@HoppingPavlova

The reality is that a Govnt works for its people I.e. public servants. This means 2 things: Working to achieve what the majority of people consider is best for them. Ensuring that it’s stacked so that they are best servicing the majority of people they believe are their voter base as opposed to the oppositions voter base.

The fact is, the majority of voters don’t have a need to go overseas and are basically indicating they are happy to wait it out.
The fact is, the majority of voters don’t have people stuck overseas they are trying to get home.
The fact is, the people stuck overseas are a minority in terms of voter numbers.

If you add all that up ........ it starts to make it extremely tough for Govnt to go against what the majority of people, and indeed the majority of voter base for current govnt, are indicating they want. Why would they sacrifice their chance at majority votes to keep a minority happy? We can layer all the other obstacles, including aspects such as Indigenous, general pop vax refusal/preference, into this but at the core it makes it quite hard for a public service to work against the want of the majority. Even if that want doesn’t entirely make sense.

How long are you talking about?

The extraordinary thing Aus government has done is to present it as a binary choice - either open the borders and turn into a plague infested island, or “wait it out” and stay as fortress Australia. The reality is it’s not binary and an aggressive vaccination programme & education around the true risk from covid would have been the difference. (I mean in terms of looking forward - I think they absolutely had the right strategy for 2020.)

I see there is another snap lockdown in Perth - presumably Anzac Day weekend ruined for millions. I just think it’s amazing that the response to that situation is STOP ALL THE PLANES rather than HURRY UP AND VACCINATE EVERYONE.

It does feel like a ticking time bomb - the quarantine / contact tracing arrangements have a narrow window of efficacy (basically you only need to miss one case and you’re fvcked). And you continue to run the risk of snap lockdowns all the time - iirc there have been lockdowns around most of the last few public holidays. And people seem to find this totally acceptable.

I think a PP had a good point - the o/S aussies are frustrated because we haven’t yet gone through the “grieving period” of being locked out of our country for potentially years. Resident aussies (if they are affected by international travel) went through that last year and are at acceptance stage.

Conversely, those of us abroad have already gone through the psychological process of accepting that elimination doesn’t work as a long term strategy, that there will always be some risk of covid and that lockdowns should not be the primary tool of control. Australia hasn’t even started that process yet - if they had people would be RAGING about yet another lockdown based on one solitary case.

The ones I know have had enough as they normally come hone every 18 months and have a different set of family or friends visit them every couple of months

I'm one of them. Last time I was in Spain was 2019 and planning Christmas with family in 2020 (including a week to Scandinavia). It's the problem with a pandemic, you can't move as freely as you want, this includes the UK who has followed Australia and New Zealand's policy of quarantine a year too late. As far as I know, the UK doesn't have open borders either?

If you ask the majority of Australians, including those with family overseas, a huge majority agree with the Australian government dealing with borders. On the other hand, if someone wants to leave permanently, they'll have no problem doing so. Their choice.

When people say they are happy to wait it out

What are you waiting to happen and how long is that do you think?

*When people say they are happy to wait it out

What are you waiting to happen and how long is that do you think?*

Two - three years which is a reasonable time to get global herd immunity and not having to deal with tests and quarantines if you want to have a holiday.

Frankly, I don't think is such a huge hurdle of time specially on an age where getting in touch with family and friends is so easy with face calls and zoom.

I suppose I'm lucky that being in Australia, we have fabulous weather, great beaches and enormous open spaces. Unlike the UK, we have really lovely options for holidays without needing to go overseas. But the reality is if you ask migrants in this country whether they agree with government policy they will hugely say yes.

And I said before, those who disagree can always go back to their own countries.

Overall, since March 2020 my brother and sister in Melbourne have had more restrictions on their lives than I have in England. There does seem to be an assumption that Australia have had a year of normality, which may be true for some parts, but not across the whole country.

Right now I'm happy to be in England and vaccinated rather than in Australia.

@eaglejulesk

You're not very compassionate are you ? It's perfectly reasonable to expect to be able to fly whenever you like - it's been that way for all of our lives. Why would we expect something different ?

I don't find you very compassionate either. Millions of people can't actually afford to fly whenever they like, but people like you talk about it as though everyone does it. We are in the middle of a pandemic and yet you expect nothing to change, and everything to continue as normal, whatever the result. Talk about entitled!!!

No way ?? We are in the middle of a pandemic ? You don't say. Your argument is just so void of any logic. You said in your previous ( mean spirited ) post, that somehow immigrants in Australia and elsewhere should have foreseen that things could change and that it was their own fault for emigrating.... I said that we are used to being allowed to travel and it was not foreseeable that this would be taken away from us. Your post calling me entitled, makes no sense at all. Whether someone can or cannot afford to travel is a different matter altogether. Borders being open was just a normal fact of life. Suggesting that anyone should have foreseen that one day travel would be made illegal and that we'd be stopped from leaving our own country and that the predicament we find ourselves in, is therefore our fault- is just mean spirited. Ps : still not an immigrant in Australia or anything, but just a human with basic empathy.

Overall, since March 2020 my brother and sister in Melbourne have had more restrictions on their lives than I have in England. There does seem to be an assumption that Australia have had a year of normality, which may be true for some parts, but not across the whole country.

Sorry that's not true. I don't' know why you are saying something that's so patently wrong and are able to be factually verified.

@Alondra

*When people say they are happy to wait it out

What are you waiting to happen and how long is that do you think?*

Two - three years which is a reasonable time to get global herd immunity and not having to deal with tests and quarantines if you want to have a holiday.

Frankly, I don't think is such a huge hurdle of time specially on an age where getting in touch with family and friends is so easy with face calls and zoom.

I suppose I'm lucky that being in Australia, we have fabulous weather, great beaches and enormous open spaces. Unlike the UK, we have really lovely options for holidays without needing to go overseas. But the reality is if you ask migrants in this country whether they agree with government policy they will hugely say yes.

And I said before, those who disagree can always go back to their own countries.

Ok thanks

I know re Aus. I’m U.K./ Aus and grew up there and spent summers on the beach.

The need to travel o/s is no where near as great as it is in U.K. distance also a factor. We’re easily accessible here and short haul holidays are relied upon in many ways.

Zoom is a bad replacement and no great shakes in reality but I’m taking in the time frame and thinking about my options.

I'm not saying restrictions have been greater in Australia, although the legal lockdowns we have had have never been as strict as the one in Melbourne last summer but those restrictions have had more of an impact on their lives than the English restrictions have had on mine. They have certainly not had a year of normal lives, unless your normal includes schools being closed, no travelling, being prevented from going interstate to attend a grandparents funeral, weddings cancelled, 12 weeks of not being able to go more than 5km from home, etc.

2 to 3 years has been my expectation too, but I don't expect the quarantine rules to remain so strict. I believe they're looking into home quarantine with proof of vaccine which would make a huge difference.

Each state may be different though, WA may not loosen up, but as well as our indigenous community, there's massive economic dependency on mining and oil and gas, there will always be additional mitigations to prevent site shut downs. We currently have the best performing economy in the world, that won't be put in jeopardy and there's plenty of support to ensure these industries are not impacted.

The need to travel o/s is no where near as great as it is in U.K. distance also a factor. We’re easily accessible here and short haul holidays are relied upon in many ways.

You are wrong. Australians travel overseas in huge numbers, as much as the British going to Europe. The difference is we go to Asia with
Bali, Thailand, Pacific Islands, Singapore, New Zealand being our favourite cheap destinations, like Spain, Greece or France is for you guys.

Holidaying in Whitsundays is much more expensive than Bali or Phucket. For the same price I get 3 days in a Witsunday or 9 days in Bali except that I unlike Britain I have fabulous weather and super beaches in Whitsundays :)

Australians are one of the biggest travelling abroad countries. But we accept that in a global pandemic giving up overseas holidays is a small price to pay.

@Alondra

The need to travel o/s is no where near as great as it is in U.K. distance also a factor. We’re easily accessible here and short haul holidays are relied upon in many ways.

You are wrong. Australians travel overseas in huge numbers, as much as the British going to Europe. The difference is we go to Asia with
Bali, Thailand, Pacific Islands, Singapore, New Zealand being our favourite cheap destinations, like Spain, Greece or France is for you guys.

Holidaying in Whitsundays is much more expensive than Bali or Phucket. For the same price I get 3 days in a Witsunday or 9 days in Bali except that I unlike Britain I have fabulous weather and super beaches in Whitsundays :)

Australians are one of the biggest travelling abroad countries. But we accept that in a global pandemic giving up overseas holidays is a small price to pay.

You are more accepting than we are then.

Suggesting that anyone should have foreseen that one day travel would be made illegal and that we'd be stopped from leaving our own country and that the predicament we find ourselves in, is therefore our fault- is just mean spirited

I did not say that anyone could have foreseen that one day travel 'would be made illegal', but there are many things which can happen in a person's life to stop them from doing what they have previously taken for granted and people need to factor that into any big decision they make. It seems most people these days think they can do whatever they want and then stamp their feet if things don't work out.

It appears that most of the people on this thread who are actually affected by the travel ban are dealing with it in a sensible and pragmatic way, and I am finding that in real life also. I have yet to hear an immigrant here complain, and strange though it may seem to you there have been people actually move here from overseas during the pandemic (medical staff).

Most people in NZ, and I imagine Australia, are happy with the way things have been handled, and yet some of you think that the government should pander to the minority

Most in the U.K. will be happy to be vaccinated and back to normal soon.

Aus sound happy with their set up.

Most here don’t have the issue with dual citizenship and Aus doing this way is just vaguely interesting rather than impactful.

I’m pleased there are some other posters in same position as me as at least there’s understanding which feels supportive.

I feel like I’m processing the new information and I appreciate other posters doing the same.

There’s a few snide posters but there always are.