Ireland AZ over 60s only.

[anyoldtime]

It’s being reported that Ireland is going to give AZ to over 60s only. Expected announcement at 7.30pm this evening.

200K have already been vaccinated with it and while it was paused, it then resumed although they knew there were issues surrounding it when it was resumed.

I’m pleased they are being responsible but a bit late for the 200K already injected...,!

Ireland actually does have the alternative supply. There is a poster here who likes to spout negativity without the facts unfortunately.

I presume you’re talking about me.

If you actually read my posts, I never said we don’t have other supply. I’m saying 20% of our supply over the next crucial three months is not insignificant and will of course, slow down our rollout if we limit it to one small cohort.

I’m also pointing out that the J&J supply that we are so heavily dependent on now, isn’t actually available yet. Are we willing to bet there’ll be no hitches with that supply? They would make it a total outlier in our vaccine strategy if so.

Most of the questions raised here were addressed

Did it address the fact that we need 100% take up among 60-69 to avoid wasting doses? And the likelihood of achieving that?

I think if there is a genuine and evidenced concern in the under 30s then it’s reasonable, erring on the side of being very cautious, to offer something else to this age group if you know that something else is available and evidence proves it is safer. However, to exclude such a large cohort (under 60s) is a huge number of alternative and safer vaccines to source if not already in the pipeline. There is already an issue being looked into with J&J, what if this has the same if not slightly higher risk than AZ. The Governments then have a job on their hands trying to convince all under 60s that the drug they paused as being not being ideal for this huge age group is now actually ok. Or do they continue on off lockdowns and further damage to their economies whilst they wait on further supplies of Pfizer/Moderna and hope there are no further supply hiccups. Again talking generally not specifically Ireland who I think (hope) have this calculated correctly as I have family there and I would like to visit as soon as it’s possible to do so.

I think @TheKeatingFive sounds like a realist rather than a negative poster who doesn't look at the facts. Their views echo those of my friends and family on the ground in Ireland who just want their lives back.

Did it address the fact that we need 100% take up among 60-69 to avoid wasting doses? And the likelihood of achieving that?

There are 200k second doses to be given, before you even start on the 400k people aged 60-69, who will get two doses. We have 800k AZ doses in Q2 and 3.2m doses of other vaccines, mostly Pfizer. So yes, we can use them.

The make up of supply and the numbers on order fed into the decision, that was made very clear.

We are going to have some surplus vaccines at the end of this anyway, given that we have ordered more than we need (precisely to mitigate risks of potential issues with any of the vaccines).

The make up of supply and the numbers on order fed into the decision, that was made very clear.

Only if take up is very high. It won’t be. They know that too.

We are going to have some surplus vaccines at the end of this anyway

By late autumn of next year, sure. In the meantime, we’ve been in one of the longest lockdowns in the world with no actual plan to reopen and our ‘ramping up’ phase of vaccinations is in tatters.

Leo’s not exactly sanguine

www.thejournal.ie/varadkar-astrazeneca-5408026-Apr2021/

@IrishMamaMia

I think *@TheKeatingFive* sounds like a realist rather than a negative poster who doesn't look at the facts. Their views echo those of my friends and family on the ground in Ireland who just want their lives back.

We can agree to disagree.

I am actually here in Ireland and I can happily say that I have not experienced such negativity from anyone here. I watch all the briefings and read widely, talk to a wide circle of family and friends and feel I have a good understanding of the situation here.

Yes we all want our lives back, we want our businesses to reopen but the reality is we do not have the supply of vaccine that the UK has. We just don't have it yet. We cannot use what we don't have. But it is coming and the plan is to distribute the different brands in the safest way possible.

We have to work with what we have, we have to be hopeful.

The UK has mostly AZ vaccine so of course they will not suspend its use to under 60s. Dr Ronan Glynn has said if we had mostly AZ vaccine we would not be doing so either. However we don't. 20% of our portfolio is AZ so we can do this. They are rolling out the vaccine in the safest way based on current evidence and the supply we have.

@Evanna13 Hear hear.

@thekeatingfive

That article backs up my point, see the below quote from Leo below:

He said there are over half a million people in Ireland who are over 60 who have yet to be vaccinated and there are also people who will be due to receive their second doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine, so the health service “will make good use of the stock that’s coming in”.

[quote Sakura7]**@thekeatingfive

That article backs up my point, see the below quote from Leo below:

He said there are over half a million people in Ireland who are over 60 who have yet to be vaccinated and there are also people who will be due to receive their second doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine, so the health service “will make good use of the stock that’s coming in”.[/quote]
Exactly, vaccine will not be wasted here.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/covid-in-ireland-limiting-astrazeneca-jab-will-unravel-vaccine-target-0jb39wtf3

Limiting AstraZenecal jab in Ireland will unravel vaccine target

That's one view. Other medical people I've heard interviewed this morning have said it won't have that big of an impact. Not much will change over the next couple of weeks, AstraZeneca was already planned to be used in the 60-69 age group.

Let's see what the HSE come up with in the next few days.

@Cherrycee

That's one view. Other medical people I've heard interviewed this morning have said it won't have that big of an impact. Not much will change over the next couple of weeks, AstraZeneca was already planned to be used in the 60-69 age group.

Let's see what the HSE come up with in the next few days.

Exactly

How's Ireland's supply doing? Any shortages and need to prioritise? Might explain the decision

That might be how the UK does things, but Ireland is following the science and not the politics.

@Rukaya

How's Ireland's supply doing? Any shortages and need to prioritise? Might explain the decision

That might be how the UK does things, but Ireland is following the science and not the politics.

"The science" doesn't come in a little box. It's open to interpretations and does not exist independently of other factors and priorities.

If following 'the politics' means being able to get back to a somewhat normal life within a few months, while 'following the science' means months more of one of the longest lockdowns in the world, I'd prefer 'the politics'.

Hence "following it".

What you prefer is beside the point. What is right is the point, what is indicated by the science. Your wishes are immaterial.

@Rukaya

Hence "following it".

What you prefer is beside the point. What is right is the point, what is indicated by the science. Your wishes are immaterial.

What is 'indicated by the science' though?

In this case we're talking about a statistically miniscule risk, which may not even be linked to the vaccine. How that risk is interpreted, and how it is balanced with other risks and priorities, is a matter of subjective interpretation, not The Science.

If we 'followed the science' as you consider to be 'right', smoking, alcohol, sugar and lots of other drugs would be banned.

Sorry, @StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind if you weren't alluding to motives being political when you said:

And yes given both the MRHA and the EMA have stressed it is safe to use and the potential for blood clots is an incredibly rare side effect, I do question the motives of those countries.

If all countries are basically restricting the AZ in some shape or form (even Germany and Italy although they seem to be giving the choice to under 60's), I just presumed you meant that they must be political as they are not deemed necessary by the respective medicinal regulatory authorities.

However, as some have suggested, it may be that countries are at different stages of age group rollouts, and some may have more choice of alternative vaccines. Maybe some will review and conclude they are being overly cautious taking benefit/risk into account.

Just out of interest, what motives were thinking of?

In this case we're talking about a statistically miniscule risk, which may not even be linked to the vaccine. How that risk is interpreted, and how it is balanced with other risks and priorities, is a matter of subjective interpretation, not The Science

You can't interpret that risk, you are not one of the scientists who can. The subjective interpretation of the SCIENTISTS is what matters, not some randomers on MN.
You don't get to decide on whether it is significant or not, or what should happen. They do. You get to listen and do as you are told.

How can you say Ireland is following 'the science' when it's clearly shown that any of the vaccines, including AZ, carry a minuscule risk compared to the risks of coronavirus itself?

I don't know whether Ireland's decision will impact the rollout of the vaccine and cause delays, there are differing views on that on this thread. But IF it causes delays then far higher numbers of people will die of coronavirus. The greater the risk of variants. The greater the risk of long COVID, of which there is still much unknown.

That really doesn't appear to be following 'the science' to me.

How can you say Ireland is following 'the science' when it's clearly shown that any of the vaccines, including AZ, carry a minuscule risk compared to the risks of coronavirus itself?

It's not clearly shown. If it was, this wouldn;t be an issue.

Honestly people, when did you graduate from your public health masters and the like? What do you think qualifies you to tell the experts that they don't know what you are doing?

what they are doing, that is

@Rukaya

In this case we're talking about a statistically miniscule risk, which may not even be linked to the vaccine. How that risk is interpreted, and how it is balanced with other risks and priorities, is a matter of subjective interpretation, not The Science

You can't interpret that risk, you are not one of the scientists who can. The subjective interpretation of the SCIENTISTS is what matters, not some randomers on MN.
You don't get to decide on whether it is significant or not, or what should happen. They do. You get to listen and do as you are told.

So the SCIENTISTS on the WHO, MHRA and EMA who have said the AZ vaccine is safe are not 'following the science'?

Of course interpreting risk, and balancing it with other risks and priorities, is subjective and not simply down to the SCIENTISTS. Pretty much every single drug that has ever been taken carries risks, but those risks have to be balanced with benefits.

But by all means, be a good obedient girl and do what you're told without question, while feeling grateful to be 'allowed' to walk more than 5km past shuttered shops and restaurants for months on end.

@Cailleach1 I replied to that or a similar point earlier.

Possible motives? Perhaps political. I don't know. It's just a possibility. The fact that it's easier to say there are safety concerns rather than admit there is not enough vaccine supply? Possibility as well. I don't know.

How could the behaviour of the EU and Ursula Von Der Leyen not make people question what is going on? It doesn't make sense to me. Threatening a ban on exports of a vaccine they have safety concerns with. I don't know, it just looks to me like they have mismanaged things badly.