MHRA may change advice for young people receiving AZ vaccine

[IloveSooty424]

I just saw this news story on Channel 4 news tonight.

www.channel4.com/news/uk-medicines-regulator-considers-issuing-new-advice-over-oxford-astrazeneca-jab

It seems the MHRA may follow other European countries and Canada and advise that younger people should not receive the AZ vaccine. It seems the decision will be made imminently in the coming days.

I’m due to book my vaccine this week and don’t know whether to wait and see how this plays out. I’m 42. I’m also concerned that if younger people will only be offered the Pfizer vaccine it will slow down the vaccine programme substantially.

Any thoughts?

AvaCallanach

All those worried about second doses (and I have only read the first 10 pages of the thread)

Surely, if this is a rare immune system response to the vaccine, it will happen as soon as, or shortly after, the body encounters the vaccine, ie after the first dose (as they explained). Therefore if you already had the first dose and haven't had this reaction, you can confidently know that you are not one of the very rare unfortunate people who are going to react this way, and have your second vaccine without worry?

Is there an immunologist anywhere on the boards who can confirm this? It seems logical to me.“

One of the usual suspects was on World at One and then PM today, saying exactly this.
I’m 56, not the least concerned about my second dose but with that information, I wouldn’t be at 30 either.
Still far more likely to suffer blood clotting as a result of Covid itself.

France banned it in the middle of march for under 55's. Not an EMA recommendation. To mich vitrol on here. For those asking.
www.rfi.fr/en/france/20210315-france-stops-astrazeneca-s-coronavirus-vaccine-over-blood-clot-fears-europe-germany-italy-norway-death

But I think same as you the worse vaccine is the one that the citizens don’t have

Absolutely no way should AZ be offloaded to poorer countries instead. . This is what happened with Thalidomide. It was shameful!

@anyoldtime if you read my post i did state to other countries for use in older population that haven't started etc

France originally banned it for older people at a time they needed it more due to supply. They now ban for younger people at a time they need it more because of high case numbers. The risk assessment in France is shocking. It the risk of having the vaccine is lower than risk to have covid you don't ban it. The EMA are correct in their assessment. All this means is the more powerful countries in the EU will hog Pfizer like made. I feel very sorry for the othe EU countries. They have already complained they are not get a fair share of vaccine.

@anyoldtime

But I think same as you the worse vaccine is the one that the citizens don’t have

Absolutely no way should AZ be offloaded to poorer countries instead. . This is what happened with Thalidomide. It was shameful!

I’ve had az (36) ans will have my second vaccine ans would recommend it to my husband (43) or my mum (61) or my sister (31). Same I’d to a 3rd country person whose choice is this vaccine or not another one for a long time. I guess because I still believe the benefit outweighs the risk hence why I think it’s not offload to poorer countries the bad vaccine

All those worried about second doses (and I have only read the first 10 pages of the thread)

Surely, if this is a rare immune system response to the vaccine, it will happen as soon as, or shortly after, the body encounters the vaccine, ie after the first dose (as they explained). Therefore if you already had the first dose and haven't had this reaction, you can confidently know that you are not one of the very rare unfortunate people who are going to react this way, and have your second vaccine without worry?

I’m AZ + 12 days so assuming I’m ok (and I don’t feel ready to assume that yet as I have anxiety) then what you say seems to make sense but I just don’t know. What if the second one kind of tips the balance?! The problem is that we just don’t know enough. We may know more by the time my second one is due but I doubt it as there won’t be that much more data.

@Truelymadlydeeplysomeonesmum

France originally banned it for older people at a time they needed it more due to supply. They now ban for younger people at a time they need it more because of high case numbers. The risk assessment in France is shocking. It the risk of having the vaccine is lower than risk to have covid you don't ban it. The EMA are correct in their assessment. All this means is the more powerful countries in the EU will hog Pfizer like made. I feel very sorry for the othe EU countries. They have already complained they are not get a fair share of vaccine.

Yes that may be an accurate assessment but i guess that depends on if these clotting issues turn out to be very rare or more common? AZ has only been given for less than 4 months.

You surely don't expect people to take unsafe medicines do you? at what point would the balance change in favour of a ban?

My DD (21) had Pfizer, bloody glad she did.

EasterIssland That is the same logic that was applied to Thalidomide. . It was scandalous.

Your personal risk assessment does not mean you are right. I am mid 40s, had AZ and had side effects. I would not recommend it to my family nor will I have it again myself.

@anyoldtime

EasterIssland That is the same logic that was applied to Thalidomide. . It was scandalous.

Your personal risk assessment does not mean you are right. I am mid 40s, had AZ and had side effects. I would not recommend it to my family nor will I have it again myself.

It’s not my personal risk Assesment but emas and mhras words today

EasterIssland You wrote in your previous post ans would recommend it to my husband (43) or my mum (61) or my sister (31). so you were referring to yourself? You were not quoting the EMA today because you have said similar in many previous posts before today.

Surely, if this is a rare immune system response to the vaccine, it will happen as soon as, or shortly after, the body encounters the vaccine, ie after the first dose (as they explained). Therefore if you already had the first dose and haven't had this reaction, you can confidently know that you are not one of the very rare unfortunate people who are going to react this way, and have your second vaccine without worry?

Unfortunately I don't think it works this way. As someone with lupus, autoimmune reactions are wholly unpredictable. The body is constantly exposed to triggers (stress, sunlight, lack of sleep etc) and 99% of the time nothing will happen. However for whatever reason, 1% of the time your body inexplicably decides to produce a cascade of auto-immune antibodies which send you into a flare.

The abnormal clotting reaction is deemed to be an autoimmune reaction with the trigger being the spike protein from the vaccine. Each surge of spike protein is a potential trigger, and each dose can be considered a renewed assault on your immune system. Nobody can know for sure whether their lack of side effects after the vaccine means they are totally unsusceptible to clots, or whether they may have very narrowly dodged a bullet without realising it.

Here's a good article on theorised biology behind AZ clotting:
medium.com/microbial-instincts/platelet-disorders-and-genetic-vaccines-might-have-a-biological-link-but-its-negligible-2da695521d66

@jasjas1973 It is a vaccine not a medicine? Also it only stays in your system a few weeks. Just long enough to trigger an immune response to create antibodies blah blah blah. 4 months for long term affect of the vaccine itself is plenty. It is the antibodies longevity, transmission, etc being watched after that. The vaccine is long gone.

You are thankful for something using even newer tech than AZ. So by your logic you should actually be worried sick at this moment.

@anyoldtime

EasterIssland You wrote in your previous post ans would recommend it to my husband (43) or my mum (61) or my sister (31). so you were referring to yourself? You were not quoting the EMA today because you have said similar in many previous posts before today.

Ema was also recommending it to anyone weren’t they? Anyway it’s not up to us what poorer countries get. I just hope they get something soon that helps them

• LeeMiller Italy now recommending AZ for over 60s, saying Germany and Spain will do the same, France limiting it to over 55s. They said second doses for under 60s will continue though. They are a bit behind us in age ranges already done. So that gives them a fair bit of room. We don't have the privilege of that and it really isn't necessary looking at the risks.*

Yes of course these are pragmatic public health decisions, there are plenty of people in the older and more vulnerable categories in Europe to give the AZ vaccines to. They will also be taking into account public trust in their countries - this week in Italy for example there have reportedly been lots of people refusing their booked AZ jabs, the rollout can’t afford to have so many no shows so it’s better it gets used.

@anyoldtime

EasterIssland You wrote in your previous post ans would recommend it to my husband (43) or my mum (61) or my sister (31). so you were referring to yourself? You were not quoting the EMA today because you have said similar in many previous posts before today.

At a guess the poster would recommend it because it is recommended as safe by the EMA and the UK lot.

@anyoldtime

EasterIssland You wrote in your previous post ans would recommend it to my husband (43) or my mum (61) or my sister (31). so you were referring to yourself? You were not quoting the EMA today because you have said similar in many previous posts before today.

Also it is a good vaccine where most people experience little side affects, is brilliant at stopping hospitalisations and deaths. Better in real life data than Pfizer in fact. Though Pfizer is very good too. It works well against the original, Kent and Brazilian variants. It is thought that with the 8 to 12 week gap the African variant shouldn't be to much different too. Though that is still being researched etc.

A reasonable comparison may be the incidence of miscarriage amongst women with clotting disorders and/or autoimmune illness. Recurrent pregnancy loss is sadly linked to abnormal clotting activity and nobody knows exactly how it works. Someone with a clotting disorder can have a successful pregnancy without any treatment, however this does not guarantee that all their subsequent pregnancies will be problem free.

Ema was also recommending it to anyone weren’t they?

An EMA official said yesterday there was a clear link between AZ and blood clotting. Or did you mean the statement today.
It is hard to keep up with the ever evolving recommendations eh!

Surely it’s better not to throw the unwanted AZ at poorer countries in the interim?

Were questions asked as to why the UK, despite vaccinating millions, didn’t raise clotting as an issue until some EU counties undertook investigations. What else is being swept under the carpet?

@anyoldtime

Ema was also recommending it to anyone weren’t they?

An EMA official said yesterday there was a clear link between AZ and blood clotting. Or did you mean the statement today.
It is hard to keep up with the ever evolving recommendations eh!

Surely it’s better not to throw the unwanted AZ at poorer countries in the interim?

Were questions asked as to why the UK, despite vaccinating millions, didn’t raise clotting as an issue until some EU counties undertook investigations. What else is being swept under the carpet?

Have you seen what ema has said today. ? They think there is a link but even then then the benefits outweighs the risks. They have not found a reason as of sex / age / illnesses so won’t limit it to anyone. This is what EMA has officially said today based on this my sentence. Mhra has said same thing. It’s been jcvi who has limited it.

Yes we are lucky the UK public are willing to listen to the public health advice and trust the NHS, vaccine experts etc to make the right call. Obviously people can then make individual choices but the majority will listen to the expert advice. Probably choose to ignore what other countries are doing too.

Not sure what will happen here and abroad with Janssen now. The tech is very similar. So people are already suggesting it needs the same limits. I suppose American probably has the answers there. They have used it a lot. Clots data needs to be made available.

I still believe that it’s better to be vaccinated regardless. It’s not just about the risk of a vaccine related clot vs the risk of Covid. It’s also about the risk of continued lockdown, economic stagnation, poverty, depression and other mental health problems, missed education for kids and lack of socialisation opportunities for toddlers to develop normally and see their families. People need to be vaccinated in order for society to open up again. In fact I’d still recommend vaccination for its economic and social benefits, even if the risk to physical health was greater.

Spain is receiving Jansen next week. I guess it’s been rolled out around Europe in the coming weeks. I think 20m to the Eu until end of June

19 people have died of blood clots out of 20,000,000 who have had the AstraZeneca vaccine. That’s 0.0001%. I don’t get why people are worried about this?

Then again, I think lots of people (bar the elderly and/or vulnerable) are totally overreacting about Covid as well - it has a 99.5% survival rate.

Ema always said it was safe. MHRA too. Individual countries reported issues and restricted it to certain age groups. There has been several threads on MN saying how SELFISH they are to damage confidence in AZ and how it's all been driven by EU jealousy. Some of which have tripped into complete delusion and paranoia, but as it's the same 5 posters they are easily ignored. Agree with PP though, now U.K. are reporting issues too maybe people will realise...