What's all the astrozeneca hate?

[Laytwir024]

From what I've read the science shows it is just as effective as the others and no more dangerous in any way. So what is going on? Eu really having talks with Russia about sputnik? Seriously?

If this is all political then that's hideous. Or are there really issues that the UK are avoiding?

My belief is that even if there are some issues, it's still far safer than getting covid and risking long covid. I'm in my 30s and I've seen long covid in people I know.

But if I somehow had a choice, I'd actually be looking towards pfizer.

It’s not just France but also Germany, Italy and elsewhere.

The UK is one of the most vaccine compliant countries in the world I think.

Which is great if there is an excellent vaccine with a minuscule risk of serious effects. The Brits will take that. Other countries won’t

What has spooked these other countries, even more than what happened in Germany, is what happened in Norway: 120 000 doses of AZ were given to (mainly young, female) healthcare workers. Of these, 6 developed CVST. That's about ten times what would normally be expected over that time period and in that cohort. Three of them died (some reports I have seen say 4). It could be, of course, that the Norwegian population is more prone to something (or uses a specific type of contraception). Still odd though.

So that’s what - 1 in 20,000?

So why are UK scientists not looking more critically at these numbers I wonder?

@Roonerspismed I suspect they are. The problem for the UK is that we only seem to have AZ vaccine available now. Other countries can simply give younger people a different vaccine, which would seem (to me) to be the obvious solution to the problem. But we seem to have relied rather heavily on one vaccine.

True. I just can’t see them saying “better not give to younger women” as it will cause havoc. So I would hope they are panicking the right way rather than just hushing it up.

I would rather have had the Pfizer but took the AZ anyway as i'm a 49 year old, menopausal, asthmatic and autoimmune teacher so the risk of getting it or long Covid is higher and more worrying for me. Rock and a hard place.

@miimblemomble that is probably one of the most informative posts I’ve seen on MN. Can you explain Germany’s problem now?!

I think a possible explanation of the increased rate of the very rare disorder in women in some countries is sampling bias

It's very clear to see in the German paper with the 31 cases

The dr saw 1 tragic case of a rare thing in a young person who died. It's human nature to look for a reason for that and they thought they had a plausible hypothesis. They likely do.

So they then reached out to colleagues to ask them if they had any cases and they found some more

There is nothing wrong in that in some ways but the problem is that they did not ask for and so weren't told about non vaccine associated cases. As no-one is case finding and collating the non vaccine associated cases the baseline occurrence may be underestimated.

In a clinical trial because there is randomisation then this kind of sampling bias is eliminated but with unselected data it's a problem. You need to do a proper case control study where you look for all cases and then back track to the exposure (the vaccine). I expect someone is doing it.

a preference (no idea why) for AZ

I had Pfizer, but would have preferred AZ because it's been tested more rigorously with the 12 week delay between jabs 1 and 2. This was when I assumed I'd be waiting until the autumn, when other other options might have been available/there was less of a frantic rush on.

Obviously I snapped someone's hand off for any vaccine at all the moment I was offered it.

I had Pfizer and sort of wished I could have had AZ a bit but not enough to put me off

The reason being that AZ is based on very old school vaccine technology that we have been using in other contexts for years so it seems to me inherently more likely to be safe.
I was happy to take part in the AZ trial (I had placebo and therefore was later given Pfizer via NHS) because it seemed like a decent calculated risk trade off vs the known risk of COVID. I would actually have been more hesitant about an RNA vaccine trial simply because it's new technology.

Now that we have trail data for both I am happy to rely on it.

Anecdotally from family, there is reluctance around AZ in France not because of safety but because its the only one that is being given on a 12 week schedule. For those that are itching to get "fully" vaccinated, they are more keen to get Pfizer on 3 week schedule or Moderna on 4 week schedule. Given the amount of Covid there at the moment plus the talk of vaccine passports for travel, I can understand them wanting to get their second dose done asap

@namechange34 that's a good point about the time between vaccines

I live in Italy and since the original trial data was first announced everyone I know has wanted Pfizer or Moderna as they are viewed as more effective whereas AZ is seen as a second class jab based on those initial percentages. I haven’t personally encountered anyone from the older/cv groups currently being vaccinated who would specifically refuse AZ if that’s what is on offer, but I have heard of this happening with younger hcp/teachers/police who think being in an at-risk profession should mean they get the “best” jab. Most people seem to be getting Pfizer or moderna anyway. Obviously there isn’t the factor of pride/affection for Az as a ‘homegrown’ product like there seems to be in the U.K., but I think a bigger factor is that Italians are used to a greater element of choice in their healthcare than Brits and are also extremely health-aware. Although the “mixed messages” might seem confusing, I think the cautious approach of offering AZ to specific groups first, pausing it, EMA investigations etc, sticking to the manufacturer’s timing recommendations etc all plays better here in terms of building trust.

As a side issue, I don’t think AZ is widely identified as ‘British’ and the vaccine nationalism and resentment stuff is not really something I’ve observed or read much about here. People are complaining more about local organisation issues booking their slot than anything else.

The PM was on tv this week getting AZ with his wife and Italy has just announced vaccines are compulsory for all hcp and pharmacists (Italians are used to compulsory vaccination as kids have to be vaccinated to attend state school), so they are pushing back against anti-vax sentiments strongly.

Vaccine scepticism is high here but you have to consider the difference when it’s no longer just hypothetical. I know multiple Brits who were wary or said they wouldn’t have a vaccine/wanted to wait, but who changed their mind when actually offered it/saw their friends have it. This is also the case for eg my Italian FIL, and the effect will spread as more people get vaccinated. And I think being able to see Israel and U.K., having success and easing restrictions will help, whereas Italy might not have been as open to being “guineapigs” for the first mass roll out.

I have not rthft so another poster may have said this, but Germany
found 30 cases of rare blood clots among a demographic ( mainly young women with no other health problems) who would not usually have adverse effects from Coronavirus itself.

As this can also happen with the Pill I am not sure if they have yet looked into all the aspects underlying these occurrences of blood clots following from being given the AZ vaccine.

In another thread on this board there's a link to a piece about the man who first discovered the blood clotting issue 'with' AZ. He says it appears to be an antibody response to the vaccination causing a platelet response in turn. The platelets seem to think they have a wound to deal with. But he goes on to say....

“I have to say very clearly, there is no direct link that the vaccine itself is inducing the antibody, it could be that the vaccine is triggering something else in the human body, which then is modifying the immune system, which is then starting to produce the antibodies" and...

"While he said it is not up to him who is approved for the vaccine and who isn’t, he doesn’t think stopping vaccinations is the right decision."

“It would be dangerous to stop vaccination, only because of the fear, for a very rare adverse event,”

His team have already developed on a screening test for the antibody 'blip' for Canada and are working on a potential treatment. His view is you have more chance of getting hurt in a motorbike accident than of developing blood clots.

Sorry, that should have said the man who discovered the issue in Canada.

Although the publication of the paper disclosed he receives funds from Pfizer and other companies.

U.K. now reporting 30 cases of the rare blood clot instead of the 5 previously reported.

As others have said, it all comes down to two things: politics and money.

30 in over 17million people vaccinated

1 person only has died.

30 cases after vaccination.

How many from Covid itself? I understand it's also been linked to this rare clot.

Regardless of clots, a lot more than 40 people under 50 have died from Covid or now suffer from long covid.

The risk is to younger women and it is of a very rare and specific type of blood clot which is often fatal.

Holland have just banned AZ for the under 60s
The numbers of deaths in the UK are now rising:
www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/02/covid-further-rare-blood-clot-cases-found-in-oxford-astrazeneca-recipients

If any women in the U.K. now receive this vaccine and suffer a similar fate, I hope they can take legal action against the government. I understand there is no recourse against the vaccine companies.

@Roonerspismed

If any women in the U.K. now receive this vaccine and suffer a similar fate, I hope they can take legal action against the government. I understand there is no recourse against the vaccine companies.

Don't believe anyone can, the Govt signed away those rights to great fan fare. Good luck winning against the Govt, you'll be in the ground before any settlement.

I know we all want answers to this right here right now, but it will be interesting to see what the data tells us in some years time.