Canada pauses AZ vaccines for under 55s (and says women most at risk)

[Boringlynormal]

Please tell me this isn’t something to worry about: www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/30/canada-suspends-use-of-astrazeneca-covid-vaccine-for-those-under-55

Speaking as a woman in her 30s who was immunised 4 days ago (article tells us the risk is for young women 4 - 20 days after vaccination), I’m panicking now. Yes I know it’s rare but so is dying of Covid in my age group so I’m wondering if I’ve made a huge mistake.

By the way I’m very pro vaccine and leapt on the chance to get one. I’m just feeling so anxious now.

Yellow card reporting is an imperfect system. It depends on Drs using it and I am sure that not every adverse event post vaccine does get reported if the Dr doesn't think it's relevant even though it's supposed to.

Younger people will definitely be investigated more than older people
if they are ill.

I would think that after the EU publicity U.K. Drs thought 'ooh yeh what about that case I had last week' That's human nature
Also there was publicity in the medical press to help Drs identify and report cases eg the British haematology guidelines I've posted a few times.

So it stands to reason there will be more reports after the first one and does not necessarily mean there was a surge in cases just a surge in reporting of cases
(Like ADHD and autism numbers rising over the years is better recognition not more autism)

This is why the apparent sex and age association could be sampling or reporting bias (if you give more young females the vaccine then you'll get more cases in young females and those cases are more likely to be reported than in elderly men)
Or it could be chance still. These cases might have occurred anyway by chance and we are just focusing a lot on this rare condition and finding more naturally occurring cases now
Or it could be confounding (ie the reaction has a different cause that so happens to be more common in young female health workers top candidate being COVID itself or possibly contraceptive pill)

I am not saying any of these are the reason but they are possible reasons. Many associations in the history of medicine have later been found to be spurious.

I appreciate people want answers but you need to analyse data to get answers. I remain happy to trust the MHRA to do its job.

Matt Hancock does not care about Cynthia, aged 29 who lives on Sunset Lane. He can't afford to care. There are 67 million in the UK. WHO et al, also don't drill down to individuals. They look at statistics. Cynthia however, can decide for herself what she deems to be a correct course of action for her. Matt Hancock and Boris have to weigh up 'the greater good'. They can't think about every single Cynthia individually.

Boris and Matt should provide the information they are in possession of to the general public so that Cynthia can decide what level of risk she is willing to take on.

To suggest that Cynthia is an antivaxxer is stupid. Cynthia probably feels that the lesser of two evils for her specifically is to not have the vaccine. Cynthia does not want to contract covid. Equally Cynthia does not want to die from a blood clot caused by the vaccine against the very thing she feared dying from.

Due to Cynthia's age, she is extremely unlikely to die from the virus. Cynthia does not yet know the stats about her dying from the vaccine.

Thank you for your patient and helpful explanations @CovoidOfAllHumanity

@Whichjab

And to add to all this there are no scientific reports since Feb (please correct me if I'm wrong but o haven't found anythjny) saying the AZ actually works and it almost certainly doesn't work against the SA variant.

The original SA AstraZeneca trial was flawed as it included only 2,000 people around the age of 30, and the two doses were given 28 days apart, instead of the recommended 8 to 12 weeks.

There was genuine scientific uncertainty as to whether masks were of any benefit at the start because we did not have so much knowledge about how COVID is spread right at the start.

I was a bit sceptical myself on the masks thing as they get wet and yucky quite easily and if you fiddle with them and touch your face (DS!) then that negates the benefit quite a bit. Whilst I do accept they have shown benefit on a population level I am a bit unsure about the level of magic talisman properties that some people seem to imbue them with.

I think sometimes there is less lying and more expediency. Eg a plastic apron, gloves and a FRSM mask worn all shift isn't going to be massive protection from Covid but they needed people to be willing to go to work and they only had enough gowns and FFP3 masks for very high risk areas so that's where the line was drawn. That's pragmatic and I get it but don't tell me the plastic pinny is completely protecting anyone.
To be fair I don't think actual scientists were claiming it would but our infection control dept were very rigid in their interpretation.

Scientific advice can and will change as more data comes in. That's the way it works. It doesn't mean anyone was lying or was 'a fuckwit' previously. It's a good thing to change advice as more data comes in.

I'm back at work tomorrow so you won't 'see' as much of me which I am sure will be a relief to some

@CovoidOfAllHumanity humanity i thinknyour posts have been really helpful so thank you 😊
you mention that foctors are being told to look out for certain things in regards to these blood clots but in terms of symptoms other than headache for 4 days is there anything else people are supposed to look out for as warning sign of these rare clots

The main things are a persistent severe headache, seizures, blurred vision, not being able to speak or move a part of your body ie things similar to a stroke
I don't think it would be subtle if you had symptoms

www.gov.nl.ca/covid-19/vaccine/astrazeneca-covishield-information/

Some of the Canadian info I think is quite helpful and balanced like this one linked above

breathlessness,
pain in the chest or stomach,
swelling or coldness in a leg,1
severe or worsening headache or blurred vision after vaccination,
persistent bleeding,
multiple small bruises, reddish or purplish spots, or blood blisters under the skin

This is what the EMA suggest to look out for.

thank you

www.itv.com/news/2021-04-06/covid-uk-regulator-considering-change-in-advice-on-astrazeneca-vaccine-for-young-people

Why only under 30 when the risk runs up to about 60? It seems a 40 year old woman is at greater risk from AZ than a 29 year old man, that's clear from the German, Norwegian and Dutch data.

It is understandable that most post-vaccine "adverse events" are difficult to prove: e.g. if you die of a heart attack a week after a vaccine it's impossible to prove whether or not the vaccine had any causal effect. But this condition (CVST / VIPIT) is so specific and rare, and the increase in its occurrence post-AZ vaccine so large (relatively speaking) that it forms a pattern. When the pattern is repeated in several countries (which it was) it was reasonable to "assume" causation. That's why so many countries acted in the way they did, restricting the us of AZ to older age groups. We held out, presumably because the balance of risks was different in the UK to, say, Norway. But once deaths started happening here we couldn't justify it for the younger age groups. I don't think it's just greater awareness of, and reporting of, the condition - if that were the case we would see similar numbers post-Pfizer. Also to my knowledge there is no such pattern of CVST reported in the USA or Israel where Pfizer has been used extensively. (I'm not saying there haven't been any problems with Pfizer, just not this one)

When I booked my vaccine it said ‘this venue vaccinated with AstraZeneca’ or something along those lines. It gave me a one second pause as the blood clot news had been recent (but I thought debunked) and then I went ahead because I had no better info to go on. I originally always wanted AZ anyway as it’s more proven technology. But thinking back to that moment now I have so many regrets about not going back and seeing if I could select a venue with Pfizer or at least a chance for Pfizer.

How many women have had blood clots after taking the pill? I knew two people who had sudden blood clots and died. Both were in their early thirties and this was years before Covid or AZ was ever heard of. I also know a young woman who is suffering from long Covid and now has a heart condition.

it's a different kind of clotting disorder to that common with hormones.

Getting fed up seeing it equated to the pill.

The pill causes a different kind of blood clots with a much lower fatality rate.

The pill isn’t offered to people with a known risk of developing this side effect.

The pill is optional and nobody is told they’re ‘selfish’ on a societal level for not taking it.

The risk from the pill is known, stated and isn’t worked out by including a lot of data from people who aren’t at risk from the pill.

The pill isn’t restricted in multiple other countries in an emerging global situation.

Thank you @Boringlynormal - I’ve tried to explain this to some in real life but not got very far.

The whole ‘selfish’ tag really bothers me-

Yellow card reporting is an imperfect system. It depends on Drs using it and I am sure that not every adverse event post vaccine does get reported if the Dr doesn't think it's relevant even though it's supposed to

Anyone can report through the Yellow Card system, not only doctors

The anti AZ sentiment on these threads is alarming. Any issues need to be properly investigated, but I hope AZ is not restricted unnecessarily, as I would like to be able to have a cheap vaccine which has already been given to millions of people without major side effects when my turn comes.

Pfizer and Moderna have had thrombotic low platelet clotting events reported in the USA as well but no one is jumping up and down - I wonder why?

Posting the link here as well

www.nytimes.com/2021/02/08/health/immune-thrombocytopenia-covid-vaccine-blood.html

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/astrazeneca-vaccine-blood-clots-ema-b1827238.html

[quote mustlovegin]The anti AZ sentiment on these threads is alarming. Any issues need to be properly investigated, but I hope AZ is not restricted unnecessarily, as I would like to be able to have a cheap vaccine which has already been given to millions of people without major side effects when my turn comes.

Pfizer and Moderna have had thrombotic low platelet clotting events reported in the USA as well but no one is jumping up and down - I wonder why?

Posting the link here as well

www.nytimes.com/2021/02/08/health/immune-thrombocytopenia-covid-vaccine-blood.html[/quote]
Why are you saying this? It's not anti-AZ sentiment and ignoring the absolutely justified fears and insulting people who have them will not change the underlying situation. You can't brush it over with a New York Times article. Our scientists are coming out and saying there may be an issue and the MHRA are reassessing its safety for young people.

See The Independent link above - EMA head of vaccines strategy has stated in an interview this morning that it’s “clear there is a link with the vaccine” (but says it’s uncertain exactly what is causing it)

Sorry if this has already been asked - I'm in my 60s, autoimmune disorder, and had the AZ vacc two weeks ago. Starting to worry more and more now .... is it known how long the vaccine stays in the body? Does it eventually 'go'? Seriously considering not having the second jab now.

I agree dismissing it as 'anti-AZ' is unreasonable. Not every question is a political position.