EU threaten to cut off vaccine supply to the UK 2

[Baileysforchristmas]

As the other thread is full

www.politico.eu/article/commission-proposes-six-week-vaccine-export-ban-amid-fears-of-trade-war/

@MaMaLa321

fwiw I think that we should be offering vaccines to Eire, as they have a porous land border with us. It would help relations between us as well, so a win win situation.

That has been offered more than once already. They refused, politely, and have stuck with the EU programme.

Oh, and that porous land border was what made someone suggest triggering article 16!!

@Itsalonghaul

If anyone knows please start a new thread maybe with AZ address, so we can all send in our appreciation.

If AZ feel undervalued, then we can do a Captain Tom moment for them for the cost of a stamp.

I honestly feel it is a terrible thing that they are so unappreciated. I don't think it should be left like that.

We love them, we should let them - and before anyone moans about the rainforest. I will personally plant a few trees to make up for it. I think some things are more important.

Oh yes, AstraZeneca the plucky little multinational Pharma company with a French CEO, listed on FTSE and owned mainly by large institutional shareholders including hedge funds! Dear god, the naivety...

What has AZ having a French CEO got to do with it?

It doesn't matter how rich AZ is, it's still staffed by people who have worked their arses off, making a cheap easy to use vaccine for the whole world to have access to and then had their product unfairly criticised so that incompetent politicians can cover up their own mistakes.

No. AZ the only pharma who agreed with the philanthropic aims of the Oxford team. Who retooled to make vaccines in order to develop an at cost vaccine.

Their sights were set on long term profits. Pfizer etc have already posted their expected covid profit margin.

Why can't you acknowledge that? We ALL know they are a profit making company. We aren't stupid. But are inclined to give credit where credit is due!

Their sights were set on long term profits

Indeed.
And I will also say that I share your admiration and gratitude for the workers at the AZ facility. And the Oxford scientists, obviously. However, I don't think that any criticism has been levelled at those groups of people, has it?

I didn't know that curious, thanks.

@TheMancunianCandidate

Their sights were set on long term profits

Indeed.
And I will also say that I share your admiration and gratitude for the workers at the AZ facility. And the Oxford scientists, obviously. However, I don't think that any criticism has been levelled at those groups of people, has it?

What's your point?

Specifically....

I have sympathy for the AstraZeneca board members as humans because they are facing a lot of stress for having tried to do the right thing. My sympathy for Pascal Soriot and his team in this situation is no more diminished by him having a large wage than it is by him being French. I fundamentally disagree with the concept that only low paid workers are deserving of politeness, thanks, and recognition of the stress they face. Humans are all affected by stress and strife, I've worked with multinationals and believe me Directors can find PR nightmares (which this largely is) incredibly stressful. I also sympathise with those in the facilities that have been searched, those who are in facilities with low yield and anyone else involved who feels the strain of the near endless criticism.

My "point" is that the criticism of the EU on this thread (even extending to blaming the EU for poor uptake in Liberia!) is based on a premise that may not be correct.

That premise is the assumption that AZ have not breached the terms of their contract. Earlier in the thread I wondered if the criticisms would be quite so vociferous if the alternative assumption is made - ie that the contract with the EU has been breached. Answer came there none.

Some posters now appear concerned that AZ may not "feel valued" and would like to stage a Captain Tom moment for them. So my further point is that AZ are a multinational Big Pharma co owned by hedge funds/institutional investors whose view of the value of the investment is unlikely to be swayed by such matters.

What's your "point"?

@MRex

I have sympathy for the AstraZeneca board members as humans because they are facing a lot of stress for having tried to do the right thing. My sympathy for Pascal Soriot and his team in this situation is no more diminished by him having a large wage than it is by him being French. I fundamentally disagree with the concept that only low paid workers are deserving of politeness, thanks, and recognition of the stress they face. Humans are all affected by stress and strife, I've worked with multinationals and believe me Directors can find PR nightmares (which this largely is) incredibly stressful. I also sympathise with those in the facilities that have been searched, those who are in facilities with low yield and anyone else involved who feels the strain of the near endless criticism.

Oh I have no problem with PS being French, if that is what you are implying. Simply hoped to underline the global nature of the business- the board is made up of all nationalities.

Another interesting article. It shows how absurd of the EU to focus on the UK, as we make such a small amount of vaccines anyway, our orders are also not being met.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/28/jean-claude-juncker-and-dominic-cummings-unite-on-ursula-von-der-leyen-eu-stupid-vaccine-war

My point is that all of that and more has been discussed, all sorts of data, interviews, reports, interpretations have been found, highlighted and discussed.

I don't expect to change anyone's perspective on this but I do expect to learn more about it, to see what the issues actually are and to discuss them, sometimes quite heatedly.

When discussing this here I have mostly provided info that refutes or contradicts the idea that the EU have the absolute right in this, that the UK are stealing, keeping vaccine intended or legally or morally bound for the EU.

I've looked at data, disputed Macron's ridiculous statements, UvdLs brashness, Italian statements that make no sense and are probably false, etc etc. So yes, it could look as though I can't see AZ or the UK being in the wrong. But what else can I do? If I see something that I disagree with, or can show is a lie, disinformation or misunderstanding I am probably going to post, usually with some evidence or a reasoned argument.

That's what we're here for, isn't it? It doesn't need name calling. Just continuing discussion.

That premise is the assumption that AZ have not breached the terms of their contract. Earlier in the thread I wondered if the criticisms would be quite so vociferous if the alternative assumption is made - ie that the contract with the EU has been breached. Answer came there none.
This is a brand new vaccine with an unprecedented global scale-up, and the commitment was to make "best reasonable efforts". Facilities have been set up and are working, albeit with lower yield than desired. I'd need some sort of hypothesis of how the contract was breached to say how I'd respond, but the EC press statements have not given any indication of something to criticise except that they don't have as many doses as they want. With the contract terms as they are, criticism needs to show they are actively trying not to create doses for the EU, which is such a weird hypothesis that I'm left only sympathising over the raids on facilities looking for evidence of foul play, because that's really dirty tactics (and stupid too).

No country has had as many doses as they wanted in these optimistic contracts that were signed in case vaccines could be ready earlier. Why do you think the EU countries are the only ones behaving like this?

Oh! The EU contract question. I thought it was answered. Take it up with AZ, why drag the UK into it?

This says it all, why the EU focused on the UK doesn’t make sense as we produce such a small amount, we’re stealing the EU’s vaccines is completely absurd

But, Kirkegaard said, the battle over exports had been “nonsense”. Von der Leyen, he suggests, may have been guilty of letting Boris Johnson get under her skin.

“The UK is a tiny, tiny vaccine producer and will always be that. One of the biggest communication mistakes they made was that AstraZeneca supplies were down in the EU because they were up in the UK, which is absurd,” he said.

“They think of the UK [as] much more of an equal than it is. In vaccine production it is a mouse and the EU will very soon by far be the largest producer in the world … I think they should stop reading the Daily Mail.”

@TheMancunianCandidate

My "point" is that the criticism of the EU on this thread (even extending to blaming the EU for poor uptake in Liberia!) is based on a premise that may not be correct.

That premise is the assumption that AZ have not breached the terms of their contract. Earlier in the thread I wondered if the criticisms would be quite so vociferous if the alternative assumption is made - ie that the contract with the EU has been breached. Answer came there none.

Some posters now appear concerned that AZ may not "feel valued" and would like to stage a Captain Tom moment for them. So my further point is that AZ are a multinational Big Pharma co owned by hedge funds/institutional investors whose view of the value of the investment is unlikely to be swayed by such matters.

What's your "point"?

Okay, I'll bite.

I agree none of us know if AZ AB have breached the contract. My opinion (IANAL) is that that will hinge on whether they have undertaken "reasonable best efforts" as defined by their contract. Without a comprehensive audit of what AZ AB has actually done, that's an unknown.

Regardless, I am hugely critical of the EU approach, for these reasons:

1. They have turned a contract dispute into a political and diplomatic conflict, dragging the UK into a dispute between the EU and a swedish registered company.
2. They have blocked vaccine supplies intended for an unrelated third country (Australia).
3. They have undermined confidence in the safety and efficacy of the vaccine, which will impair the vaccine rollout.
4. They were slow to start on vaccine procurement and underestimated complexity of manufacturer - both these have been admitted.
5. As far as we know, they have done nothing practical which might help boost vaccine production.

Is that enough to be going on with?

Thanks for posting the Guardian article

@Motorina oh and raided an Italian factory of vaccines as they thought they were coming to the UK but were mainly for Brussels and poorer countries!

the EU will very soon by far be the largest producer in the world

Seeing is believing mate!

My "point" is that the criticism of the EU on this thread (even extending to blaming the EU for poor uptake in Liberia!) is based on a premise that may not be correct.

The actions of EU Member states have undoubtedly impacted the uptake of the vaccine throughout the world. I don't think that can really be refuted.

The assumption that AZ has breached the EU contract is highly likely to be incorrect.

The assumption (of many throughout the EU thanks to many journalists) that the UK has stolen all their vaccines is untrue.

There are many claims and lies on the EU side and I think its hard to argue that these are correct.

I agree some of the comments have been a bit far out there and I feel a bit uncomfortable with some, but it doesn't take away from the fact that the EU / some EU member states are trying to blame the UK / AZ for their failings.

If the shoe was on the other foot i am sure UK would do the same - we just wouldn't be able to bully in the same way as we are a small independent country.

If the shoe was on the other foot i am sure UK would do the same - we just wouldn't be able to bully in the same way as we are a small independent country.

Wow, no. I don't believe the UK would be raiding the factories of companies producing life-saving vaccines and threatening to cut vaccine supplies to other countries. Honestly, I think we're way better than that. I think almost all European countries are better than that too - the problem lies with a small number of leaders whose behaviour has been little short of evil.

Scribbling I meant UK govt trying to deflect blame from themselves by blaming EU.

But yes the other stuff would be unlikely.

And I don't think the behaviour of some in the EU has been evil.

Panicked, irrational, delusional, entitled yes. Evil, no.