EU threaten to cut off vaccine supply to the UK 2

[Baileysforchristmas]

As the other thread is full

www.politico.eu/article/commission-proposes-six-week-vaccine-export-ban-amid-fears-of-trade-war/

@MarshaBradyo

So we really do need those Pfizer this month?

I assume we’re ok given U.K. hasn’t gone nuclear and issued statement today

Yes because we extended time between the 2 doses from 3 weeks upto 12 so a quarter / 3months. Anyone who's had pfizer needs a 2nd dose.

Newsnight covering the debacle.
The statement means nothing.
Tomorrow meeting will vote on export ban.

@MarshaBradyo

So we really do need those Pfizer this month?

I assume we’re ok given U.K. hasn’t gone nuclear and issued statement today

I’ve volunteering over tje weekend and it’s pfizer what they’re using for second doses

We do need it I know and this month was set aside for second dose rollout

I had hoped that statement meant something and we would still get Pfizer, but very stressful if not

Easter that’s interesting

Wonder how the numbers work if we’ve only received 10m so far and used them? Not sure on figures

@MarshaBradyo

Easter that’s interesting

Wonder how the numbers work if we’ve only received 10m so far and used them? Not sure on figures

We might have used less than 10 or received more. It’s my local gp so can’t imagine it’s the only one having them but I think they’re doing 5 days between this week and next and it’s pfizer for over 80s

No India haven’t started raiding vaccine sites with armed police, the EU has lost its mind with revenge and spite

You really reallydo need to make more effort to understand what goes on in Europe and how it works, even if it's just to "know your enemy".

Of course the chuffing police were armed ..surely you must know that most of the police in the EU, as in many parts of the world, are armed by default, regardless of the duties they are performing at the time.

Whether they are raiding pharmaceutical companies, examining business premises, doing traffic stops, checking on your reason for travel doing lockdown or helping the elderly across the road. etc etc..they'll have a side arm....even our local metropolitan plods who do little more than issue parking tickets and our customs officers are armed as a matter of routine.

I don't think AZ were being singled out for specially nasty attention..

We haven’t stockpiled second doses. The whole point of delaying dose 2 to 12 weeks was to allow more people to be vaccinated early. If the second doses were stuck in a warehouse we wouldn’t have achieved that.

If we don’t get those doses as anticipated from EU sites then our rollout is screwed.

@MarshaBradyo

So we really do need those Pfizer this month?

I assume we’re ok given U.K. hasn’t gone nuclear and issued statement today

We don't know if it's ok or not until after the meeting tomorrow. I would hope Biden will allow Pfizer to send interim supplies from the USA in the worst case, it looks like he's opened up Moderna only for UK. It's also possible that the UK already got more Pfizer doses somehow and don't want to anger the EU further by pointing it out. The UK government do seem to be trying hard not to inflame EU behaviour further. A bit like dealing with an angry drunk, softly softly so they don't lash out.

(Most of our close elderly relatives were in the big mid Jan batch, so it's directly relevant. DM and DA are grumbling that they should be allowed second jab Oxford AZ instead as a dose of each is probably better anyway. DMIL a bit nervous in case she's asked to mix. DF and DFIL unphased either way.)

@Motorina - when was your second dose, was it this week?

The Polish Prime Minister argues to make vaccine export dependent on companies meeting their commitments to the EU. And for the EU to be able to claim the intellectual property, and redeploy it to other manufacturers without the consent of the patent owner.

(Source: www.politico.eu/article/polish-pm-eu-must-use-every-legal-tool-boost-vaccine-production/)

To an extent, Az has done that voluntarily, by supporting worldwide-production of their vaccine. Pfizer has not. Pfizer is profit-making. I can see them being a bit miffed at having their research taken and redeployed to other companies, undermining their profit base, without their consent.

I also question whether it's doable. We know the UK has sent experts to Az plants within the EU in order to trouble shoot. I suspect the very particular expertise needed to get the vaccine production line up and running sits in the brains of a handful of people. It's one thing to lift the patient for a gun or a tank and give it to a factory to churn out; it's another to take the skills and knowledge to get vaccine production off the ground without the consent of those who developed it.

Either way, if I were an entrepreneur, I would be looking sideways at the EU and wondering whether I could trust manufacture within their territory.

@Mrex - yeah, it was booked for saturday coming, but I moved it to the earliest slot I could because I was getting twitchy about supply. So I had it on Monday.

(And then had to work tuesday, with side-effects, something I am holding UvdL personally responsible for.)

Patents are a much bigger issue. If the EU can seize them now, then so can any other country, at any other time. Poor implementations can lead to lots of trust and reputation for the original manufacturer even if their IP has been stolen. Medicines and vaccines have always saved lives, so "it was a pandemic" is not an argument to save any IP in future. mRNA technologies can be used for a huge range of other diseases, as can adenovirus vectors. The pharmaceutical companies have a right to keep exploiting their investment in the technology, and to make future profits, it's not clear why they should help the world in the next pandemic if it's to come at the cost of losing critical pre-developed technology. What's worse is that they are all already sharing with other facilities to try to speed up production but retaining quality control; the EU can just make more facilities and support available, they don't need to steal anything just cooperate! If it were anywhere else, we'd be talking about sanctions for the leaders responsible if this goes ahead.

[quote Motorina]@Mrex - yeah, it was booked for saturday coming, but I moved it to the earliest slot I could because I was getting twitchy about supply. So I had it on Monday.

(And then had to work tuesday, with side-effects, something I am holding UvdL personally responsible for.)[/quote]
Congrats!

@notimagain I know Europe quite well and it’s not normal for armed police to raid company property and then splash it all over the media false information about stock piling and sending the goods to the UK even though it wasn’t even coming here it was mainly for Europe, dreadful way to behave. AZ are also late with orders for the UK but we aren’t demanding stock from the EU. All this is about is the EU want derail our rollout. Whatever they decide today it want improve their vaccine deliveries.

www.politico.eu/article/health-crisis-takes-crazy-turns-as-eu-scrambles-to-address-scarcity-of-vaccines/

My line of work has been screwed by the pandemic and the vaccine rollout has been pretty much the only thing keeping me going. I honestly feel so much anger towards the EU Commission or whatever it’s called. I voted remain as I was worried about the economic consequences of leaving, but the way they’ve behaved over this is absolutely dreadful. Everyone who was saying that there’s no way the UK would survive on its own without the EU was completely wrong - the opposite has been proven to be the case. I am so glad we left now but I’m disappointed that Boris has given into the bullies.

Either way, if I were an entrepreneur, I would be looking sideways at the EU and wondering whether I could trust manufacture within their territory.

Same here. The good thing is that once the pandemic is over, the UK will benefit massively from this. If I wanted to base a company in Europe I would now choose the UK over the EU every time.

www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/clinical-areas/immunology-and-vaccines/gps-told-to-get-six-doses-out-of-all-pfizer-vaccine-vials/?cmpredirect

Could this be the reason why it seems more Pfizer doses have been given than 10 million?

[quote Baileysforchristmas]@notimagain I know Europe quite well and it’s not normal for armed police to raid company property and then splash it all over the media false information about stock piling and sending the goods to the UK even though it wasn’t even coming here it was mainly for Europe, dreadful way to behave. AZ are also late with orders for the UK but we aren’t demanding stock from the EU. All this is about is the EU want derail our rollout. Whatever they decide today it want improve their vaccine deliveries.

www.politico.eu/article/health-crisis-takes-crazy-turns-as-eu-scrambles-to-address-scarcity-of-vaccines/[/quote]
It is a strange way to behave for sure they don't trust AZ and unsure how that relationship can ever be repaired.
They don't trust the UK and God knows why they did imply UK and az colluded with each other to hide vaccines in Europe.
The uk has made a few public statement that we have no orders due to arrive from eu sites.
Their lack disbelief January led to raid on Belgium and examining the order books.

Newsnight pointed out the uk ordered 100million doses of az and eu 300millionand we received around 20million so we short of what we ordered too .
When pfizer and moderna had production issues there was small amounts noise from some countries but not the Europe.
When pfizer undelivered we dident kick off and attack them.
The favouritism show towards other vaccines and the constant attack and negativity toward AZ is getting tiring.
Seen a few mep talk on the news and they don't seem to understand business contracts or the complexity of vaccine production.
So much anti uk sentiment and rhetoric all time if as they say this week Their issue with eu and az why keep dragging uk into it.
This new mechanism our falling rates of infection and high vaccine rates they will turn down next shipment.
Its the pfizer block that will cause massive mess I don't think they will be able to recover from.
In grand scheme of things we only need another 30k pfizer to complete the uk order.

We will see which countries support us and which don't today.
I like to think Biden would discourage this and step in and help pfizer to fulfill their contact with us like hes maybe doing for moderna 17million doses.

The 100 million doses were never intended to be delivered in one go.

Moderna and Pfizer are the same in that the doses will be delivered in several instalments.

‘If you can get 11 doses out of the 10-dose AstraZeneca vial then do so, it’s now standard practice to get six out of the previously five-dose Pfizer vial and you should have a reserve list of people in categories one to four to be able to call up at the end of the day if there’s any spare.’

I don’t understand this - is it like the readymade baby formula, where the bottles are officially 200ml but there always seems to be an extra 5-10ml in the bottle?

I like to think Biden would discourage this and step in and help pfizer to fulfill their contact with us like hes maybe doing for moderna 17million doses
Do you have a link about Biden and the Moderna?

Seen a few mep talk on the news and they don't seem to understand business contracts or the complexity of vaccine production.

They really are a bunch of incompetent idiots

When will we know the outcome of this meeting today? Nice to hear that Biden could potentially help us out.

@MRex - thank you. Also, got a sticker. Was a good day.

I hope your family get theirs on schedule.

The fundamental issue at the bottom of this, that all the noise cannot hide, is that there is not enough vaccine to go around. If the EU gets more then someone - whether it's the UK, the US, or Covax - gets less. Last night's bland joint statement about working together to increase supplies for everyone is nonsense, because there isn't a magic vaccine tree which we can work together to raid.

What we can do, and where cooperation would help, is investing to increase supply. More raw materials, more production sites, sharing expertise. That will make a difference, but not for 3-6 months.

(Frankly, if certain countries had been as proactive as certain other countries much earlier in the process then we would be in a much better place now. But that boat has sailed.)

Or we can continue with the political mud-slinging, which threatens restrictiosn in cross border cooperation and reduced exports of materials or sharing of expertise. That will impact negatively on long-term vaccine production. But it might divert blame from EU procurement, which I guess is a major win for the politicians involved.

Don't you just hate humans, sometimes?

Yes @nonono1, older style needles would have a little spillage so the vials are filled with extra. Modern needles and careful users can get more out, so they've been using more. It led to Pfizer reclassifying their "dose volume" supplied and being supplied in their January dispute with the EU, which I found quite humorous at the time. It looked like AZ possibly did the same a few weeks later.

@nonono1

‘If you can get 11 doses out of the 10-dose AstraZeneca vial then do so, it’s now standard practice to get six out of the previously five-dose Pfizer vial and you should have a reserve list of people in categories one to four to be able to call up at the end of the day if there’s any spare.’

I don’t understand this - is it like the readymade baby formula, where the bottles are officially 200ml but there always seems to be an extra 5-10ml in the bottle?

Sort of.

When you give any injection you suck up the liquid to fill the needle and syringe up to the required dose. When you actually inject it, some of the drug gets left in the needle. You can't squirt it all out of the void. A bit like there's always some toothpaste left in the nozzle of the tube when you're done*. That gets thrown away.

Drugs vials are filled with enough to give the number of doses, plus an allowance for the amount wasted because it's stuck in the needle.

If you use a very narrow, very short needle you reduce how much is wasted. With Pfizer, where the total dose is very small (0.3ml I think?), then that saving adds up enough to make an extra dose.

(*An aside - I have a very posh, expensive UV-protective moisturizer that I like. Am I the only one who cuts open tubes of expensive toiletries to use the last bit?)