Why do care home staff/NHS have to be vaccinated?

[MissMarpleTheMurderer]

We don't insist on other vaccinations (ie you can work on a children's ward without having the measles jab and there have been several small outbreaks recently (v small but measels is much more contagious and has a much worse outcome for children than covid does.)

The local care home has just announced that it will employ vaccinated staff only, however it already struggles to recruit and retain staff and the longest member, who does such a great job looking after my mam has just handed her resignation in as she doesn't want the jab. The care home have said she has to have it because some members of the home have chosen not to have the jab, but she says its unfair they get a choice but she doesn't, (and feels that she doesn't need the jab because she already has had covid and was fine)

Now I get that vaccinations are not 100% but the data is looking good, I feel uncomfortable forcing people to be vaccinated especially when the risk of the illness is so small to them (we don't vaccinate against Hep A or Chickenpox because the risk to people is not cost effective for the NHS, however each year people/children die from it)

Do you support forced vaccination, and if you do how do you plug the gap in social care staffing? (Especially as unlike the debate on R4, the majority of staff do not see it as their vocation, it's a job that pays the bills and a pretty crappy job/wage at that and my mam's care home is now going to have even less staff)

"I agree that vaccinations should be a choice, but that all choices have consequences. So when everyone who wishes to be vaccinated has received their jabs then the country needs to open up fully. No restrictions. For those people who haven’t had the vaccination, then they need to manage the consequences and that may be that they get very poorly and may even die."

This is bad science/false logic.

If vaccines had no impact on transmission it would be true - i.e. if whether or not you personally got vaccinated didn't affect your ability to catch and pass on the virus. But that's not the case (nor has it ever been with ANY vaccine).

It also ignores mutations - if a large unvaccinated population is spreading the virus around within a vaccinated population then you encourage the virus to learn to bypass the vaccine.

It also assumes that people make intelligent choices and don't need protecting from themselves - shall we legalise all Class A drugs at the same time??

Those who are elderly tend to have weakened immune systems, plus many illnesses result in this - the covid vaccine may not offer as much protection (study currently underway) so they rely on their caregivers to be vaccinated. Its perfectly reasonable to expect those choosing to work in caring professionals to be fully vaccinated - and many do insist on this eg my friend even had to have hep b.

Oh and I'm working with vulnerable adults myself and am desperate to be vaccinated to protect them not me (I've had covid, had far worse colds so vaccine isn't for my benefit I worry about being asymptomatic) alas I'm not eligible yet

Don't be silly! Of course staff should have the jab in care homes 🤷🏻‍♀️.

@Fuckadoodledoooo

And as for "well they can just get another job then" most people don't set out for a career doing 12 hour shifts doing heavy lifting and doing personal care for other people. IME it's something people do when they can't do anything else for a host of reasons.

Not always. I agree its very hard work but I'm doing it because I choose to qnd enjoy it.

Notrub

I completely agree with your point about the mutations. Thats the bit we can’t plan for.

However, I stick with my views on the other points you’ve made. Although the evidence is strong that vaccines do limit transmission, there is still a risk that people who have been vaccinate can transmit. However, if they transmit to other people who have also been vaccinated - then those people are by default protected by the vaccine. If vaccinated people transmit to people who chose not to be vaccinated - then that is the choice of the non-vaccinated person and they accept the consequences.

The grey area of course is still those who cannot be vaccinated or are not protected by vaccination but in this instance (ie spread by someone who is vaccinated), then that person has done everything they can to prevent this.

As for protecting people from themselves, where does this end? As a country, we cannot stay in lockdown and restrictions forever because a proportion of people refuse a vaccination? They have to take responsibility for their decisions. And I don’t really understand the connection with legalising class A drugs I’m afraid. I don’t think class A drugs have ever resulted in a year long national lockdown and the amount of economic pain that this country (and globally) have gone through.

I’ve always been a strong supporter of the approach for lockdowns, following the rules and protecting people against this virus. But this cannot go on forever, and there has to be a way out of lockdown and restrictions even if people choose not to have the vaccine.

When I started teaching we all had to have had a BCG vaccine for TB ; plus a clean chest Xray. Also had to be tested for colourblindness.

My Dr son has to have regular updates of hepatitis vaccine.

None of those were a big deal to any of us and I don't see why anybody would object to covid vaccination to protect the people they serve.

I’d just like to say that I really feel for your mum in losing her carer, OP. In my work I regularly see the difference a kind carer can make to the quality of an older person’s life and how much it can affect them when that carer leaves, for whatever reason. Good staff are worth hanging onto, not only because of recruitment problems.

While vaccination may be mandated for new staff, I think it’s a bad idea to force existing staff out of their jobs if they can’t/won’t be vaccinated and, until they choose to leave, the infection control issue should be managed through existing measures: PPE/regular testing/risk assessment and staff management.

Good wishes to your mum, OP.

I managed care homes for years, recruiting reliable staff is an absolute nightmare, staff turnover is also very high. I think insisting on this vaccine is going to cause even bigger problems.

@2bazookas Why couldn't you be a teacher if you were colour blind?

In my industry we aren’t insured ( personal indemnity and workplace insurance) without certain vaccinations -,
And therefore it’s no jab no job-as no one is able to hire you without proof Been this way since the 90’s when I trained
I fully expect this to become the norm across the board

@2bazookas

When I started teaching we all had to have had a BCG vaccine for TB ; plus a clean chest Xray. Also had to be tested for colourblindness.

My Dr son has to have regular updates of hepatitis vaccine.

None of those were a big deal to any of us and I don't see why anybody would object to covid vaccination to protect the people they serve.

I'd forgotten about those tests when I started teaching!

Covid is approx 1000x more serious than seasonal influenza - I'm sick of hearing comparisons

Please don't sensationalize Covid, its a serious disease but with a mortality rate just under 3x that of influenza, based on french research from those hospitalised.
In children less serious than flu.

HCPs working in the NHS have to have all their other vaccinations up to date. My DS working as a vaccinator just had to have a Hep B jab. No jab, no job. Why shouldn't that apply to care homes and what are people worried about?

Working conditions and pay need to be sorted by care home company's. I have just left a job where I was run off my feet 12 hours a day and only 2 carers to 21 residents. It was ridiculous. I had the vaccine to and had to have a day off as was ill from the side effects. No pay for that day off tho. Glad I've found a better job with better pay and nicer working conditions

It isn’t mandatory

I’m an nhs nurse, I’m yet to meet an nhs or social care worker who hasn’t wanted it yet but it isn’t compulsory. A few members of staff haven’t had it due to contraindications.

Care homes have had some major issues with covid and a lot of deaths. I’m surprised at how many in this home you talk of didn’t want it, and would be concerned at that many not wanting it.

I do agree that care work is very difficult though and shouldn’t be made anymore so.

I worked in care homes as a student nurse, I’d take working as an icu staff nurse beyond capacity any day

Hep B is compulsory but only in EPP areas (theatres, dialysis to name but a few). It’s recommended and offered for all nhs workers but not compulsory.

Do you support forced vaccination

100% I do. Every single person who can have a Covid vaccination, should have one. It's the only way out of this mess. Health and social care staff should be setting everyone else a good example. I'm appalled that staff are refusing the jab and potentially putting the people in their care, at risk.

I do not believe people should be forced into vaccinations , but I can see why healthcare workers are in the first in line to get vaccinations. We don’t want them quitting their jobs because they do not want to get health complications from it.

I think people stupid enough to refuse the jab, should be forced to have it. It's in their best interests and the state has a duty of care to them.

When I have started all of my NHS jobs they have checked my vaccination record pre confirmation of the job offer. I don't know what they do if you are not vaccinated as I always have been. This has been in 6 different trusts so it is common place already. Our trust doesn't make the flu jab compulsory but there is real pressure to have it. Covid will be the same. I know staff who have declined it. Care homes are usually private companies so if they want it as an employment requirement then that's up to them

No one want to give up their career and everything they worked hard for. So it is forced. You can’t just walk away from all that

You also don’t want to jump off the cliff just because your job tells you must in order to keep your job. Not everyone find it safe quite yet.