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Covid

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Original poster

Why do care home staff/NHS have to be vaccinated?

133 replies

MissMarpleTheMurderer · 03/03/2021 07:44

We don't insist on other vaccinations (ie you can work on a children's ward without having the measles jab and there have been several small outbreaks recently (v small but measels is much more contagious and has a much worse outcome for children than covid does.)

The local care home has just announced that it will employ vaccinated staff only, however it already struggles to recruit and retain staff and the longest member, who does such a great job looking after my mam has just handed her resignation in as she doesn't want the jab. The care home have said she has to have it because some members of the home have chosen not to have the jab, but she says its unfair they get a choice but she doesn't, (and feels that she doesn't need the jab because she already has had covid and was fine)

Now I get that vaccinations are not 100% but the data is looking good, I feel uncomfortable forcing people to be vaccinated especially when the risk of the illness is so small to them (we don't vaccinate against Hep A or Chickenpox because the risk to people is not cost effective for the NHS, however each year people/children die from it)

Do you support forced vaccination, and if you do how do you plug the gap in social care staffing? (Especially as unlike the debate on R4, the majority of staff do not see it as their vocation, it's a job that pays the bills and a pretty crappy job/wage at that and my mam's care home is now going to have even less staff)

OP posts:

StarCat2020 · 03/03/2021 08:11

its all well and good saying they can get another job, they can
Getting another job isn't as easy as it was.

Who is going to do the job they have just left?
Vaccinated people if that is what the care home are asking of new staff??

110APiccadilly · 03/03/2021 08:11

The staff shortages point is an interesting one. As you can't exactly force people to become carers, it might be that homes will have to employ unvaccinated carers. Either that or pay them more (haha, did I see a flying pig?)

Original poster

MissMarpleTheMurderer · 03/03/2021 08:12

@Lockdownbear

Some of the residents might not have had a choice it maybe they are already too ill or have other issues preventing them from having the vaccine.

The Care Home is with in their rights to insist new staff are vaccinated. If you don't want to have the vaccine don't waste their time applying for the job.

Its could ruin the reputation of a home if they have an outbreak of covid causing the death of residents who are clearly vulnerable.

I'm seriously thinking about what to do, the care home is great because of the staff, I'd rather my mum had great staff and risk that her vaccination works, than lose even more staff.

OP posts:

Sirzy · 03/03/2021 08:12

There are always going to be some who fall into the vulnerable category who can’t be vaccinated.

No vaccine is 100% effective either therefore by having everyone around them vaccinated it does help further reduce the chances of them being infected.

110APiccadilly · 03/03/2021 08:13

Incidentally I worked in a care home in my late teens, at which point I'd had no vaccines whatsoever. No one asked about it.

I've been vaccinated since, as an adult, but at that point I don't think I'd even given the fact I was unvaccinated much thought.

Original poster

MissMarpleTheMurderer · 03/03/2021 08:14

@StarCat2020

its all well and good saying they can get another job, they can Getting another job isn't as easy as it was.

Who is going to do the job they have just left?
Vaccinated people if that is what the care home are asking of new staff??

And where are you going to get these people? Already the care home sector has been hit by brexit, do you really think there are hoards of people wanting to go into care work?

OP posts:

Bazoo23 · 03/03/2021 08:14

Honestly it's probably going to be the norm.
Get the vaccination or dont work with the vulnerable.

And incidentally I had to show proof of my vaccinations and have the hep jab before starting work as a newborn hearing Screener for the NHS. I just got on with it

Sirzy · 03/03/2021 08:14

Actually I struggle to believe that someone can be a genuinely good caring HCPs but then not want to take a step to protect those they look after. Surely basic duty of care comes into it?

StarCat2020 · 03/03/2021 08:15

I'm seriously thinking about what to do
It depends on who funds your Mum's care and whether you have PoA or not?

Stickytreacle · 03/03/2021 08:15

I think the high staff turnover is more likely due to pay and conditions, improve those and retainment will improve. I don't think compulsory vaccination will have a massive impact on staff retention, most people are keen to be vaccinated and there are plenty of jobs already that require vaccination such as the water industry.

zxy12 · 03/03/2021 08:17

Appreciate that obstacles to recruiting care workers are unhelpful in a sector where staff retention is an issue. I also agree that vaccination should be voluntary.

But I don't agree with people working in front line medical care choosing not to be vaccinated. As good as your healthcare worker is, if she doesn't have the vaccine and picks up covid, she is endangering the residents. Current residents may be vaccinated but that's not always going to be the case. Ditto for doctors.

We've heard a lot about protecting the NHS, quite rightly, but healthcare workers refusing the vaccine undermines this. I guess it's more understandable where people have been tested, know they've had covid and still have a high level of antibodies. But, even then, I think they should lead by example and have the vaccine as it helps public confidence in its safety and reduces the chance of them unknowingly infecting patients.

Original poster

MissMarpleTheMurderer · 03/03/2021 08:18

@Sirzy

Actually I struggle to believe that someone can be a genuinely good caring HCPs but then not want to take a step to protect those they look after. Surely basic duty of care comes into it?

I don't agree with this. My mams main carer has been amazing, she really has made a difficult time better and has been her main comforter whilst we have been barred. I don't think her own medical decisions should be part of the duty of care, especially as the wages are so poor. Plus will all visitors have to be vaccinated?

OP posts:

Bazoo23 · 03/03/2021 08:19

Miss Marple

Who will do the job? Vaccinated staff of course.

StarCat2020 · 03/03/2021 08:19

do you really think there are hoards of people wanting to go into care work?
I think that there will be lots of people who will be willing to work rather than be unemployed in the coming months and years.

Kokeshi123 · 03/03/2021 08:23

How will we solve staff shortages?

The coming unemployment tsunami will probably take care of that problem, to be honest....

StarCat2020 · 03/03/2021 08:23

Sorry maybe I am getting sceptical in my old age but something about this thread doesn't ring true.

Lockdownbear · 03/03/2021 08:24

I'm seriously thinking about what to do, the care home is great because of the staff, I'd rather my mum had great staff and risk that her vaccination works, than lose even more staff.

I'm not entirely sure what choice you have.

Most of the care homes will be taking the same logic, staff need to be vaccinated to reduce the risk of spread in the home. No home wants to hit the front page of the local paper "residents died because of covid outbreak".

Shortage of staff in the care home sector means the staff are underpaid and under valued, simple. The homes need to up the money. But that eats into their profits....

Not that you can do much about it but I suspect in the next 5-10 years care homes will be taken into the public sector. Covid has shown up the weakness in the care homes being privately run and run for profit not care.

feelingverylazytoday · 03/03/2021 08:29

This is nothing new. I trained as a nurse in the '80s, we were basically told to have the required vaccines or go home (barring medical reasons). I think it's fair enough, tbh. We've already seen that many people caught covid-19 in hospitals and carehomes, both staff and patients/residents, it's to reduce risks for everyone.

Elmo230885 · 03/03/2021 08:33

@sirzy I have to agree with you. Due to a blip in the system where I work didn't fall into vaccination catagories but we managed to sort it. We care for children and young adults with complex physical health needs and SEN. As a company we are going down the route of staff needing to be vaccinated. Not all the people supported by us can be vaccinated or tested regularly so it's the best way to keep everyone safe. The vast majority of staff have taken up the vaccination but some have strange reasoning. There's a small group that can't see the bigger picture. It has caused conflict as I (and others) see it as part of our duty of care.

(On a slightly different note I've needed to remove staff from site and start disciplinary procedures for staff refusing to wear PPE for various reasons. I really question their understanding of their duty of care when they won't even wear some material over their faces!)

WhoWants2Know · 03/03/2021 08:36

How will they solve the staffing problem? Probably with some of the thousands of people who have lost their jobs and businesses as a result of Covid.

DIshedUp · 03/03/2021 08:36

But how can you care for someone when you won't have a vaccine that will protect them?

If the care worker has covid. Has an asymptomatic case say and gives it to the residents they could kill the residents. Its not like going to the supermarket, if you are caring for someone and you have covid you are highly likely to pass it on, and in a care home highly likely to kill them.

poppycat10 · 03/03/2021 08:37

I agree new staff should be vaccinated - you say it's a requirement in the job advert, so they know before they waste time getting into the application process. In most cases residents will be vaccinated themselves but I don't think it's an imposition to ask staff to have it.

I'd like to think that existing staff could be persuaded (not bullied) to have it.

I only think this in NHS/social care, I see no reason for it to be compulsory or heavily recommended in other areas (maybe education, but it's really more for the staff benefit, so if they are worried about getting it, they can get vaccinated themselves).

Purplewithred · 03/03/2021 08:38

In the first wave, 40% of deaths registered as due to Coronavirus were in care homes. Care home residents are at very high risk of dying if they catch it.

At the same time, care homes are short staffed and cannot afford to have their staff going off sick with Coronavirus.

Personally I think refusing the vaccine is selfish unless you have a good medical reason not to, in much the same way as refusing to adhere to very careful hygiene if a home has a norovirus outbreak would be.

DianaT1969 · 03/03/2021 08:39

If a care home worker thinks that Covid is safer than a vaccine, I don't think they are in the right job. Particularly at this stage of the rollout. You would wonder what other 'notions' they have about medicine, hygiene control and care protocols.

feelingverylazytoday · 03/03/2021 08:41

I don't think her own medical decisions should be part of the duty of care
Of course they should, if they're going to impact on the people they're caring for.

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