Why do care home staff/NHS have to be vaccinated?

[MissMarpleTheMurderer]

We don't insist on other vaccinations (ie you can work on a children's ward without having the measles jab and there have been several small outbreaks recently (v small but measels is much more contagious and has a much worse outcome for children than covid does.)

The local care home has just announced that it will employ vaccinated staff only, however it already struggles to recruit and retain staff and the longest member, who does such a great job looking after my mam has just handed her resignation in as she doesn't want the jab. The care home have said she has to have it because some members of the home have chosen not to have the jab, but she says its unfair they get a choice but she doesn't, (and feels that she doesn't need the jab because she already has had covid and was fine)

Now I get that vaccinations are not 100% but the data is looking good, I feel uncomfortable forcing people to be vaccinated especially when the risk of the illness is so small to them (we don't vaccinate against Hep A or Chickenpox because the risk to people is not cost effective for the NHS, however each year people/children die from it)

Do you support forced vaccination, and if you do how do you plug the gap in social care staffing? (Especially as unlike the debate on R4, the majority of staff do not see it as their vocation, it's a job that pays the bills and a pretty crappy job/wage at that and my mam's care home is now going to have even less staff)

Some jobs (a previous career for me) insisted on mandatory drug checks. Part of having the job to make me safer. Same for this.

On your feet most of the day, dealing with occasional verbal and physical abuse, very low pay and poor benefits, personal care, working nights...of course recruiters won’t have a problem filling vacancies

I'm not allowed to work in the NHS without hep B, I had the vaccine because loads of patients come into my clinic without a mask on and behave irresponsibly and lonely people or those with learning difficulties often get me in a bear hug on the way out. I wouldn't feel safe without it.
We get a lot of anti vaxxers in my hospital who don't observe lockdown, ignore symptoms, refuse to wear masks and a few who I know have covid and I've seen in town wandering about.
I can't think of any beneficial reason not to have it.

@StarCat2020

I wouldn’t want anyone caring for my elderly or vulnerable relative that refused the vaccine for an unsubstantiated reason. E.g. conspiracy based Yet the OP is supposedly standing up for a carer who doesn't want the vaccine which baffles me.

Because (and BTW troll hunting isn't allowed, but go on report me, I'm a very old poster) there is more to life than covid, especially in the case of my mam who doesn't really have much of a life at all and gets wonderful care from someone that is now leaving. Those people saying its OK there will be loads of people unemployed and desperate to get a job, these aren't the people that you want caring for the most vulnerable. I can only assume that the posters who think its so easy to be in care work have never worked inside a home.

@southeastdweller

On your feet most of the day, dealing with occasional verbal and physical abuse, very low pay and poor benefits, personal care, working nights...of course recruiters won’t have a problem filling vacancies

Maybe it will lead to care home staff being paid more? Oh...... just made myself laugh there. Of course it won't,

I was still working at the start of the pandemic. For one of the biggest private care provides in the country. An email from the manger stated that no one was to use coronavirus as an excuse not to come to work and that they knew it would be used as an excuse for two weeks off. Absolutely disgusting but not a shock.

That's the attitude you are up against. D&V bugs are rife in homes, as are lots of viruses because I dare you to try and call in sick. Managers don't believe you and put pressure on you to work, if you are zero hours they are petty enough not to offer you more hours for a couple of weeks as punishment. Oh, and no sick pay to boot even if you do manage to stay at home on your sick bed.

Care home staff are treated appallingly and there will be some who will see being made to take a vaccine that they are quite righty allowed to question and not have being forced on them as yet another kick in the teeth.

And as for "well they can just get another job then" most people don't set out for a career doing 12 hour shifts doing heavy lifting and doing personal care for other people. IME it's something people do when they can't do anything else for a host of reasons.

@Shehasadiamondinthesky

I'm not allowed to work in the NHS without hep B, I had the vaccine because loads of patients come into my clinic without a mask on and behave irresponsibly and lonely people or those with learning difficulties often get me in a bear hug on the way out. I wouldn't feel safe without it. We get a lot of anti vaxxers in my hospital who don't observe lockdown, ignore symptoms, refuse to wear masks and a few who I know have covid and I've seen in town wandering about. I can't think of any beneficial reason not to have it.

I agree, I don't understand why they don't want it

The trouble is that a care home’s duty of care does now have to include taking appropriate steps to keep residents save from Covid, which has massively disproportionally killed care home residents.

Another problem is that no vaccine is 100% effective, and the Covid vaccine is less likely to be effective in some of the most vulnerable - those with compromised immune systems who may not be able to mount an immune response to the vaccine. So some remain vulnerable.

Given levels of disease still circulating, it does feel proportionate for a care home to minimise the risk by mandating that staff - who can spread from patient to patient as well as from the outside world - be vaccinated.

Otherwise care homes may have to look at other ways to minimise the risk - such as continuing to restrict visitors, etc. None of those are straightforward decisions.

BTW troll hunting isn't allowed, but go on report me, I'm a very old poster
I am not troll hunting you.

I am honestly shocked that you think that you cannot see how your Mum's carer could potentially harm her by not being vaccinated.

Maybe it is just me but I don't get it.

Thanks Fuckadoo there seems to be a void between the perceived idea or care work and the reality. I believe in vaccination, but I'm uncomfortable with people's being told it's the vacc or job, and devastated that someone will leave because of it (admittedly for purely selfish reasons)

@StarCat2020

BTW troll hunting isn't allowed, but go on report me, I'm a very old poster I am not troll hunting you.

I am honestly shocked that you think that you cannot see how your Mum's carer could potentially harm her by not being vaccinated.

Maybe it is just me but I don't get it.

You are right. She could get covid from her, that is one type of harm, but my mam has had her jab and they do the best with PPE, which will help. Have you ever seen or read about the harm People come to in care homes. Left in their own excrement, left without food or water, left in their rooms with no one to talk to. Have belongings stolen or rough treatment. Covid is not the only harm to care home residents, she can comeby my more harm with poor staff.

It's not solely about protecting the residents. Think about it. Unvaccinated staff who catch covid from a resident and then have to medically retire or die (in the most extreme cases) will be a risk factor in the home's liability. They could be sued by the family of the staff member. They are thinking about the protection of the residents, the staff themselves and the company. Easier for them to declare to their insurers they will reduce that risk as much as possible by only employing vaccinated staff.

I'm extremely uncomfortable with employers doing this.

In my DF's Care Home (which is currently locked down) there were 3 members of staff who caught CV19 due to refusing the vaccine. One resident has now contracted CV19. She has dementia.

That is why care home staff need to have the vaccine

there seems to be a void between the perceived idea or care work and the reality
I agree but when you have a family to pay for then the "void" may not matter.

I'm uncomfortable with people's being told it's the vacc or job
It is worrying but no-one has told this carer that yet.

Erm...so they don't spread the virus unknowingly to vulnerable people who they are caring for? Is this a real question? Maybe in the wrong occupation if you cannot comprehend putting other's needs first.

@StarCat2020

BTW troll hunting isn't allowed, but go on report me, I'm a very old poster I am not troll hunting you.

I am honestly shocked that you think that you cannot see how your Mum's carer could potentially harm her by not being vaccinated.

Maybe it is just me but I don't get it.

Her mum has been vaccinated.

My DM and DMIL are both in care facilities and vaccinated. I'd far rather they had a warm and receptive unvaccinated carer, than someone who's had the vaccine, but is only doing the job because it was the only job they could get and treats them dismissively.

My MIL's carers are without exception, wonderful, caring and affectionate with her. Apparently two of them haven't had the vaccine. I don't know what their reasons are, but I'm okay with that.

Most of my DM's carers appear to just be going through the motions in the way they interact with her. I'd hate the unvaccinated people at MIL's home to be sacked in favour of vaccinated carers like my DMs. I totally get where OP is coming from.

@willloman

Erm...so they don't spread the virus unknowingly to vulnerable people who they are caring for? Is this a real question? Maybe in the wrong occupation if you cannot comprehend putting other's needs first.

Funny, I'm advocating for putting someone else's wants above my mams needs.

I totally get where OP is coming from
I see what you are saying, I honestly do but I just cannot agree with you.

I agree that vaccinations should be a choice, but that all choices have consequences. So when everyone who wishes to be vaccinated has received their jabs then the country needs to open up fully. No restrictions. For those people who haven’t had the vaccination, then they need to manage the consequences and that may be that they get very poorly and may even die.

The problem I can see is those people who cannot have the vaccine or the vaccine offers less protection and how do we protect them? In some respects, if you just leave those who don’t want to get the vaccine to it, it is their decision that they may get ill. But if those people who make that choice then spread it to those who cannot be vaccinated (ie pregnancy) or where vaccines are not as effective (ie immunocompromised) then there is a problem because those who have chosen not be to vaccinated are not just harming themselves, but they are having an impact on those around them. I’m guessing that is where compulsory vaccines for certain occupations may need to come in?

When ever I read threads about care homes, I wish some of the posters could come to work with me for a week.

12 hours of being spoken to like shit from managers, run off your feet because they put the bare minimum staff on shift, being covered in other peoples bodily fluid, spat at, sworn at, hit, bitten and having no time to actually care because you are so under pressure to keep the get up/wash/feed/clean/bed conveyor belt cycle going as fast as possible for multiple people, seeing other carers rough handle people and being too scared to whistle blow because you will lose your job (I was once sacked for reporting abuse to the CQC).

12 hours a day or night, never knowing your shift pattern all for min wage.

The way care workers are spoken about really pisses me off. Some are terrible, ill give you that. Most of the people I've worked with have been awful, awful people and just horrible to those they have to care for (unless there were families visiting abs then it was Oscar worthy performances of compassion).

Some of us are okay though. But I wouldn't be doing it if I could do something else, unfortunately I managed to stuff up my prospects, like most of the people I've worked with.

Covid - you put it better than I did. If you dont have the vaccine that is your choice. Its not your choice to then potentially spread it around because of those choices.

You will have to find another role should you choose not to have the vaccine.

Vaccine passports might be coming soon. Have the vaccine or dont have it but dont be surprised if you are barred from visiting certain countries.

I was listening to someone on the radio yesterday who was rambling on about the lockdown and saying we were doing it too quickly and what about the people who are refusing the vaccine - we apparently need to be protecting them too!

I think all care workers should be vaccinated unless there is a significant medical reason why they cannot be.

Whilst the very elderly have been vaccinated and death rates are going down, there will be a range of responses in different individuals depending on their own immune system and we cannot assume they are now "safe" because they have had the vaccine- only that at a population level they are "safer". You don't know if your Mum is the one whose body has not responded well to the vaccine, so you want her carers - younger, fitter and more likely to mount a decent immune response to the vaccine - to be vaccinated.

@Haenow

jasjas1973 you cannot compare flu and covid as the latter is far more contagious

Of course, i made no such comparison.... the point is flu has killed millions in hospitals and care homes over the decades, despite vaccines being readily available.

No one has ever called for staff in CH's to be vaccinated or leave!

...and tbh its a moot point, vast majority of residents have been vaccinated, thankfully.

Who will be next? shop workers? trades working in peoples homes? garage staff ?

The best vaccination programs work on consent and accurate information, far better to give CH staff the information to make informed decisions than threats.

Covid is approx 1000x more serious than seasonal influenza - I'm sick of hearing comparisons.

It's strange - never hear people complaining about being FORCED to take driving tests, or about being breathalysed.... Personal "freedom" is ALWAYS limited where it infringes on the rights of others, in particular the right to life.

As to the poor arguments about the vaccine not being 100% effective... since WHEN do we ONLY take a precaution if it's CERTAIN to work??

NEVER is the answer to that. You can kill someone doing 20 mph, but we don't say, "Oh well, no point in speed limits then!".