Coronavirus and "human rights"

[lightand]

I was thinking to start a thread about this, this morning, but couldnt think of quite the right words.
Now I have been on a thread, and with the permission of another poster, I am reposting her words here.

"A year ago if you'd told me what the rules would be I wouldn't have believed you. I would have thought it a human rights abuse. I feel scared, unsafe. I'm living in a world where the government can put law abiding citizens into solitary confinement. That's fucking terrifying. I couldn't escape it. I couldn't escape what they did. Nothing feels safe, knowing they can take everything. Take away your loved ones."
[She wrote it in the context of living alone and being separated from loved ones].

I think this will be one of the many enduring memories when people look back on what has happened in the last year. That what we think of as human rights, were, and still are, being easily taken away from us.

@RedcurrantPuff

I agree *@McSilkson*. The “what would the government have to gain from this?” crew are so naive.

But what would it gain? It ain't gaining much at the moment apart from possibly a few dodgy contracts handed to mates, but that goes on in non pandemic times.

I’m also interested in what posters think they’re achieving by being so hostilely condescending with quips like “The “what would the government have to gain from this?” crew are so naive”.

I’m going to presume the socially acceptable reason is to alert people to whatever information it is they’ve come across that’s so important when actually they’re just revelling in superiority because talking to people like they’re dickheads isn’t a great educational or marketing method.

You’d think there would be a sense of responsibility in the tone of posting if you were that confident in what you were posting.

(and is even easier now thanks to Brexit).

@RedcurrantPuff

I agree *@McSilkson*. The “what would the government have to gain from this?” crew are so naive.

But genuinely, what does the government have to gain that outweighs the negatives of imposing such stringent restrictions that you think are unnecessary?

I am guessing some of what we should be worried about is set out on a site like this. I can't bear to listen to it all but there is a doozy around 47 mins in where the nurse being interviewed talks about virus shedding and says "you can't mask your arse" - she doesn't seem to understand that we do go around shitting on each other in Tesco in the same way that we breathe on each other,.

www.ukcolumn.org/article/ordo-ab-chao-narcissists-power-and-psychological-attack-uk

@Cornettoninja so many questions I know. Perhaps journalists should be investigating and allowed to be published. Ask them!

People are allowed to be concerned about 'human rights' being removed (as per the title) without having the answers. Or without having to post answers on here even if they did have 'the answers'. It's okay to believe some things are not true without knowing what the truth is or why it is being in presented in different ways at different times to different people. It's funny, because I get accused of being a conspiracy theorist but I see little point in spending ages wondering 'why'. I think it is better to notice what it is going on and let it be reported. But people can post what they want as far as I'm concerned, I'm not going to harass them for answers. Unlike some posters.

Mainstream journalists have a much higher level of accountability - they can’t post pieces on a whim and have to have some evidence to back up what they’re saying.

Government control aside (you’d think foreign media would pick up on the odd story) maybe it’s because the ‘evidence’ isn’t as strong as you’d like.

People are allowed to be concerned about 'human rights' being removed (as per the title) without having the answers

I agree with this, that if our civil liberties are suspended with no good reason, we should be worried. But that is not the case here as far as I can see. If the restrictions don't begin to be lifted when it is safe to do so, then I will be worried.

The problem IMHO is that those who might have real and rational reasons for fearing we are sleepwalking into a totalitarian state don't ever seem to want or be able to set out those reasons. Those of us who don't think that is going to be the end game are able and willing to set out why we think that way.

Try catching more flies with honey perhaps?

People are reluctant to give their thoughts to the thought police on MN and then be told they are stupid. So people stop posting. It's not rocket science.

The constant narrative of how stupid everyone is is really divisive. Because, assuming that there aren't a lot of government bots on here, and assuming that we all want a fair and just society then we're all on the same side. Imo we should all be encouraging each other to look out for each other's rights and hold to account businesses, media, officers and governments that are going too far regarding control. Minimising concerns that people have is unhelpful.

Power
Control

Same as other totalitarian regimes.

@RedcurrantPuff

I agree *@McSilkson*. The “what would the government have to gain from this?” crew are so naive.

Do spell it out for those of us who can’t see it. Please

I see no reason for multiple governments to cause this much economic damage deliberately. If you do please tell me

@TravellingTilbury

Try catching more flies with honey perhaps?

People are reluctant to give their thoughts to the thought police on MN and then be told they are stupid. So people stop posting. It's not rocket science.

The constant narrative of how stupid everyone is is really divisive. Because, assuming that there aren't a lot of government bots on here, and assuming that we all want a fair and just society then we're all on the same side. Imo we should all be encouraging each other to look out for each other's rights and hold to account businesses, media, officers and governments that are going too far regarding control. Minimising concerns that people have is unhelpful.

It’s just that those saying rights are being permanently removed can’t or don’t explain why this would happen. Without the why, it sounds like a conspiracy theory.

Explain why and I’m sure everyone will engage

@RedcurrantPuff

Power Control

Same as other totalitarian regimes.

Control why? To what end? Why does the give want to control us all?

Government, not give

@TravellingTilbury generally speaking the onus isn’t on those supporting the status quo to convince those who don’t to reconsider though is it?

I take the position that you’re actively speaking out against measures that protect society without much (if any) narrative or evidence about how your position mitigates the risks I believe are present. If you believe your position is correct then it’s your responsibility to engage me not the other way around.

Every time a point is challenged and that’s ignored or met with hostility you’re entrenching my view you’re seeking to promote harm because your stance isn’t strong enough to be secure enough to acknowledge its weaknesses and flaws.

[quote Cornettoninja]@TravellingTilbury generally speaking the onus isn’t on those supporting the status quo to convince those who don’t to reconsider though is it?

I take the position that you’re actively speaking out against measures that protect society without much (if any) narrative or evidence about how your position mitigates the risks I believe are present. If you believe your position is correct then it’s your responsibility to engage me not the other way around.

Every time a point is challenged and that’s ignored or met with hostility you’re entrenching my view you’re seeking to promote harm because your stance isn’t strong enough to be secure enough to acknowledge its weaknesses and flaws.[/quote]
Spot on

Lots of posters have explained perfectly well what some concerns are and I echo their sentiments.

I hardly think it is promoting harm to think that the human rights of say, people in care homes - and their close families - have been not been respected. And I should emphasise that the care homes and staff have often been amazing but they've been put into a situation that's not fair on any of them. It's just my opinion and just an example. I think family members should be allowed to visit other family members in care homes. It's cruel to keep vulnerable people apart without touch and help from family members. Time is too precious to keep waiting. But again, it's just my opinion, same with lots of things. Agree or disagree, it's a forum, it's fine. Let others be concerned if they want - that's their right. I will always defend the rights of others to be heard.

@TravellingTilbury - you are wasting your time engaging and explaining to these two. They aren't interested in what we have to say, just shutting our concerns down because they don't like them.

@travellingtilbury

No PP or yourself have explained why the government would continue coronavirus restrictions unnecessarily or what they have to gain by turning the UK into a totalitarian state.

Many many posters have said this, politely, and are trying to engage with your point of your view.

But you make alarming statements (our humans rights are being removed, scientists and clinicians are being gagged, restrictions are not necessary), which when people question the legitimacy of, you're not able to provide any evidence.

If this was theoretical discussion the tone of responses might be different, but this is a real-life pandemic, and posting these kind of statements has the potential to do significant harm.

@pinkearedcow

People are allowed to be concerned about 'human rights' being removed (as per the title) without having the answers

I agree with this, that if our civil liberties are suspended with no good reason, we should be worried. But that is not the case here as far as I can see. If the restrictions don't begin to be lifted when it is safe to do so, then I will be worried.

The problem IMHO is that those who might have real and rational reasons for fearing we are sleepwalking into a totalitarian state don't ever seem to want or be able to set out those reasons. Those of us who don't think that is going to be the end game are able and willing to set out why we think that way.

Yes exactly, with bells on

It's odd because I'm not even trying to persuade anyone about anything. And yet there are certain posters that are desperate, desperate to shut down perfectly normal human, conversations that are - not at all harmful - about concerns about human rights - per the original post.

This is a forum for chatting! If people don't want to read, scroll on. But the policing is unreal (sorry, faux 'concern'). It's really inauthentic, that's what so odd. Just let people have different views without trying to tell them their views are right or wrong.

@TravellingTilbury

It's odd because I'm not even trying to persuade anyone about anything. And yet there are certain posters that are desperate, desperate to shut down perfectly normal human, conversations that are - not at all harmful - about concerns about human rights - per the original post.

This is a forum for chatting! If people don't want to read, scroll on. But the policing is unreal (sorry, faux 'concern'). It's really inauthentic, that's what so odd. Just let people have different views without trying to tell them their views are right or wrong.

No one is trying to shut the conversation down

They are asking for evidence for the alarming things you are alluding to

[quote dividedwefall]@TravellingTilbury - you are wasting your time engaging and explaining to these two. They aren't interested in what we have to say, just shutting our concerns down because they don't like them.[/quote]
Hilarious

I literally said there would be much better engagement if people explained why they think rights are being removed permanently. Happy to engage with a reasoned rational discussion and I may even learn something

However, it’s not forthcoming

@TravellingTilbury

It's odd because I'm not even trying to persuade anyone about anything. And yet there are certain posters that are desperate, desperate to shut down perfectly normal human, conversations that are - not at all harmful - about concerns about human rights - per the original post.

This is a forum for chatting! If people don't want to read, scroll on. But the policing is unreal (sorry, faux 'concern'). It's really inauthentic, that's what so odd. Just let people have different views without trying to tell them their views are right or wrong.

No policing

You’re saying our rights are being removed permanently and it’s terrible

I’ve asked why you think that

You won’t say

You’re perfectly entitled to think what you like but normal conversation doesn’t consist of one party stating a view then saying “not explaining any more”

[quote dividedwefall]@TravellingTilbury - you are wasting your time engaging and explaining to these two. They aren't interested in what we have to say, just shutting our concerns down because they don't like them.[/quote]
If I'm sleepwalking into the next North Korea I want to know about it.

I'm an epidemiologist, I don't dislike a certain hypothesis or viewpoint because of what it is, and I'm not interested in forcing data to tell me what I want it to.

Right now, I'm aware of overwhelming, robust, scientific evidence to suggest the current restrictions are necessary and in the best of interest of public health. In contrast, I haven't seen any reliable articles or commentary that would suggest otherwise, and that the government are using this situation to control us and gain power. I'm keen and open to hear this point of view, if someone would explain it to me.