Why can't schools all go back at once?

[Trumplosttheelection]

I have seen suggestions that secondary pupils will have to wait a week longer? Why?
Secondary schools have actually managed social distancing quite well and adolescent mental health is in crisis. Not to mention their academic future being in the toilet.
I can't see why they have to wait another week?

If all the stuff I listed isn't social distancing, then I wonder why the school bothers. Seems to be huge effort for fat zero nothing result.

What about April start will be so much safer than going back in March? Given that all the efforts my school is making now are said to be useless... or should those measures be retained in April in spite of their claimed absolutely total pointlessness? Why would they have effects in April but not in March?

Dd secondary was lucky, loads went down in her year group but only once in her form so one period of si however it was clearly noticeable in the run up to Xmas they were starting to fall thick and fast.

I absolutely understand the need for critical years to rush back, but mine are not in critical years.... They can certainly wait for a few more weeks...

Id love to know how students can do social distancing in school.Its impossoble

There is a saying.. Don't cast a clout till May is out.

Every week we wait, millions more become vaccinated and the weather becomes that little bit warmer.
Which all massively helps with the virus... To keep windows open, get out, eat lunch out...

It's a sort of empty mantra '' most kids need school and most kids need to back ASAP ''.

Within the context of this catastrophic pandemic, a week or two isn't anything major, but in terms of number suppression, NHS, vaccinations and so on it makes a huge impact.
I would also hope that every week we waited means more teachers can be vaccinated.

Chanting.. Kids need to be in school is sort of Hollow.. Children need an education yes and most are still receiving an education in some form.

@lljkk it doesn’t mean the measures are pointless as they reduce some of the risk. And the argument for April over March is that cases generally will be lower by then, so lower chances of cases getting into schools, and more people vaccinated

The vaccine!!!

I would love it if the government put it in the hands of parents

Ie the schools will be open. If you want to send your child in, great.
If you don’t, continue to home school, great.

I’d be front of the queue

If all the stuff I listed isn't social distancing, then I wonder why the school bothers. Seems to be huge effort for fat zero nothing result.

The measures will help somewhat. Some children will listen and do as they’re asked, not mix with those they’re not supposed to, go straight home after school after leaving at a different time to others, wearing their mask sensibly etc. But many won’t.

It does help a bit. If we have a case in y9 they are only mixing with 300 year 9s not the other 1500 students in school. They are also only in close contact with their friends and students in one class as they stay in one room for lessons but mix as a whole year at break/lunch/on the bus so less students have to isolate if there is a case. But it isn't social distancing in the same sense as adults are supposed to follow everywhere else. I can't think of anywhere else where 30 people can legally sit in a room the size of a normal classroom for 5-6 hours a day. Anyone who thinks social distancing is happening in school is deluded.

But they must be pointless, @Eccle80. If any of below statements (including your own words) are true, then what DS school is doing must be entirely ineffective -- else below can't be true. it says right there below. "there is (no) social distancing in schools". So whatever actions DS school is doing, none of those actions count as social distancing. Since none of them are social distancing, that's why I'm asking, what would be social distancing: it's not opening windows, masks in corridors, Stay in small group in single room all day, teachers banned from getting physically close to pupils. It turns out that none of that is social distancing. If any of the (italics) quotes below are true.

Thing is... Although not forms of social distancing September-December 2020, could those same measures become "social distancing" in April 2021? What would be different in April 2021?

Social distancing is impossible in a school with 1200 pupils
SD in lessons is impossible
To achieve social distancing you would need to keep all of the kids apart all the time
What you can't argue is there is social distancing in schools. There isn't. It's impossible.
don't say there is social distancing when there really isn't.
There is no social distancing in secondary schools.

How do they manage options subjects? One class won’t be the same class for every lesson.

It is for 90% of the time. There is one option subject in years 7-9. One afternoon each week they all split into small groups, without mixing with any others in the process. Specialist teacher who used to teach French twice a week to a mixed Y7 group, now teaches 6 lessons per week to that same year because each form takes that class separately. Option subjects are taught by specialist teachers. All other subjects can be taken together.

Years 10-12 have been reshuffled according to subject choices. My brother is in Y11 and on top of his core subjects he has chosen the science Baccalaurate. He moved groups in September and everyone in his class takes the same free subjects - Maths, Physics, Chemistry. All core subjects together. They split up for Biology/Technological Design - with a big felt screen that cuts through the classroom. It's not great to have two teachers speak at the same time but they manage. It's miles better than learning from home for weeks on end.

I appreciate the situation in England is different. I was just trying to explain that social distancing is possible, even though measures have sometimes to be a bit extreme. No one over there tried to replicate last year's conditions. They have adapted to the new situation and that includes less subject choice, less freedoms, compulsory masks and lots of other non-fun things. But it has kept all the children in the country in education. They had enough stopping for 3 months last spring.

If they do, they might as well open up full society social mixing, because that's what will happen. That's what did happen in the 'so-called lockdown' in November. People can see that it's ridiculous to have thousands of people allowed to mix in one building but not be allowed to go round to their friend's (whose kid is probably in their kid's class) after dropoff.

They need SD in classrooms or at least masks (and properly worn masks)

oh wait, I'm gettingit.

All the stuff DS school did/does will become "social distancing" when prevalence is (whatever it will be in April, as long as lower than 8 March), but not when prevalence is high (whatever it will be on 8 March)... The definition of social-distancing depends on relative prevalence?

Maybe it was always so, just a different definition than I ever heard before. Nothing to do with actual actions, only to do with wider conditions.

Worth mentioning I'm not making this stuff up, but I have been given this information both by my brother and my mum, whose work is associated with the school.

This specific country haven't been fantastic at managing the pandemic either, but getting kids back in school permanently and with as little risk as possible was the number one priority of the department for education ever since they closed in March 2020. I couldn't believe that in late August the UK still had no specific strategy for the schools reopening, except for saying 'schools are safe'.

I would like secondary DD to get some time in school but I'd be happy for her to have a mixed timetable so there are reduced numbers in school.

Come to that I'd be fairly happy for that to be the case for upper primary DS as well.

They do get a fair bit out of homeschooling. It hasn't been a waste of time for them and I'd rather a safe phased return than all in and 2 weeks later all out again.

@lljkk

oh wait, I'm gettingit.

All the stuff DS school did/does will become "social distancing" when prevalence is (whatever it will be in April, as long as lower than 8 March), but not when prevalence is high (whatever it will be on 8 March)... The definition of social-distancing depends on relative prevalence?

Maybe it was always so, just a different definition than I ever heard before. Nothing to do with actual actions, only to do with wider conditions.

No, it's not social distancing at any point. It is other precautions to reduce spread. Social distancing is staying a distance apart from others (1-2m), this doesn't happen in schools. The things you listed such as ventilation and masks do help, but they aren't social distancing. Staying in small groups is reducing contacts, this is good but not social distancing. Some people seem to think children are staying apart from each other in schools, they arent, there isn't space.

I do try and stay away from the children in my secondary classes but the rooms aren't big enough for me to be 2m away from all of them, all the time. They weren't designed to be.

If community transmission is low enough and vaccines are high enough the benefits outweigh the risks. But still there is no social distancing, it's just a necessary risk.

Am a secondary teacher. My school tried everything. Distance between desks carefully measured, a 'teacher zone' in each classroom, tutor groups staying together in one room as much as possibly in KS3 , hand gel all over the school, wiping down desks, masks when moving around school (and the kids were good about this), staggered starts and finishes, as much as possible different toilets for different year groups, all breaks and lunchtimes fully supervised (by exhausted teachers who barely got to have a wee or a drink). We still had a fair few cases, and obvious traceable transmission, and classes sent home. The reality is you can't distance in narrow corridors. And even with two teachers supervising each year group area every lunch and break, you can't have eyes in the back of your head. Teenagers are social animals and think they are immortal, and are no good at understanding long-term consequences. It's just the way they are wired. As soon as the teacher's back is turned they are hugging, play fighting, sitting bunched up together for a chat... Anyone naive enough to think social distancing happened in their own teenager's school just hasn't got a clue. Schools with low case numbers were just lucky.

Teenagers are social animals and think they are immortal, and are no good at understanding long-term consequences. It's just the way they are wired. As soon as the teacher's back is turned they are hugging, play fighting, sitting bunched up together for a chat...

This is also true, everywhere

And nothing has really changed. Yes, the over 60s will be vaccinated by 8th March, but that is a tiny minority of teachers because most are far too knackered to teach by 60! So the staff and the kids will be unvaccinated. Nothing has been improved with regard to safety, or considering blended learning. So back to the madness we go!

You can't social distance 30 kids in a class. Rooms aren't big enough.
I'd prefer my secondary kids back after Easter. I might even get my first jab by then.

@Pastanred

but hospitalisations - 90% are groups 1-4 who have been done

No, that is incorrect.

88% of deaths are of people in the top 4 vaccination groups.

Only 55% of hospitalisations.

And less than 50% of ITU admissions (because really frail and elderly people aren't considered suitable to ventilate).

There is ZERO social distancing in schools. Zero. How could there be? They're no bigger than they were before the pandemic.

For 30 children to queue outside my classroom with SD in place, we'd need a line 60-70m long. And the same for the classroom next door. And the one next to that. And classrooms 5 times as big. And canteens 10 times as big. And corridors 5-10 times wider.

*88% of deaths are of people in the top 4 vaccination groups.

Only 55% of hospitalisations.

And less than 50% of ITU admissions (because really frail and elderly people aren't considered suitable to ventilate).*

This is really important.