Why can't schools all go back at once?

[Trumplosttheelection]

I have seen suggestions that secondary pupils will have to wait a week longer? Why?
Secondary schools have actually managed social distancing quite well and adolescent mental health is in crisis. Not to mention their academic future being in the toilet.
I can't see why they have to wait another week?

@Trumplosttheelection

The school reported each case to parents, after those affected had been made aware.

It never ceases to surprise me how desperate some teachers are to keep schools closed

Because we love remote lessons so much?!

My year 11 child informed me there was no sd at her school and I wasn't surprised tbh.

Not enough space, not enough teaching staff to spilt classes.

Only had a handful of cases and they were all staff, as far as I know all fine now.

@Trumplosttheelection do you genuinely think your school had better mitigating rules than other schools that had more cases, or can you accept that your school was luckier than others

I think its the element that in most of the country, primary kids walk or are driven in parents cars to school, but secondary students are most likely to use public transport.

That on line learning works best for children who can read.

Primary students arrive in school and then can stay in the same classroom all day, bar loo visits and break /lunchtime play, which can be staggered. Secondary students need to move round every hour and for practical reasons on that moving classrooms thing, need to all have lunch and break at the same time.

Primary teacher and TA can stay with one class group all day every day, secondary teachers see up to 5 groups of children in the day, different groups on different days. (Asymptomatic teachers can be spreaders as well as students).

The way we structure primary school education limits the number of people an asymptomatic child will come into contact with compared to secondary.

I just don't get why people who are desperate for schools to open feel the need to state things that are untrue about what happens in a school.

If you want them open as normal, then that needs to be because you believe the benefits outweigh the risks to the community from transmission. I may disagree with you, but I can see why you might think this.

What you can't argue is there is social distancing in schools. There isn't. It's impossible. We have the same number of children in the same space as before. Schools weren't designed with social distancing in mind, why would they be? They haven't magically grown either.

So either you say, yes this is a risk but I think it's worth it. Or you come up with a better plan. Just don't say there is social distancing when there really isn't.

The kids at our school didn't move around much either. It is possible though a compromise for some lessons.
I don't think they were lucky. I think they worked really hard.
Most kids need school and they all need to get back ASAP.

This is a standard secondary school. 1500 pupils. Year groups kept apart, masks at all times except eating and lessons, staggered and separate arrivals.
Around 25 cases in the whole term including staff and that was with levels in the city steadily rising. It can be done.

to paraphrase a statement in my DC's school newsletter from last October "The number of cases has been low so far, but that is entirely a matter of luck".

And probably also asymptomatic cases. When community testing came in around Christmas, the number of cases in secondary school children absolutely shot up - many of them were asymptomatic.

It's not possible for everyone in a large secondary school to socially distance. They can (as my DC's school does) put measures in place to minimise contacts, but it's a best efforts only "solution".

@Trumplosttheelection

The school reported each case to parents, after those affected had been made aware.

It never ceases to surprise me how desperate some teachers are to keep schools closed

How dare you!!

The school reported each case to parents, after those affected had been made aware.

This is unlikely. We had letters to say about cases, but in the end through conversations with other parents in different year groups, I knew it wasn't all of them. Close contact closures weren't always publicised towards the end of term - only when it was a full bubble closure. I also wasn't told about cases in other primary school classes, just those that affected my dc.

@Trumplosttheelection

The kids at our school didn't move around much either. It is possible though a compromise for some lessons. I don't think they were lucky. I think they worked really hard. Most kids need school and they all need to get back ASAP.

There were no cases at all in my DD's year last term (Year 10). Every other year group was into double figures of cases. Clearly this is entirely due to Year 10 working very hard at their social distancing. Amazing how they managed to do it so much better than any other year group, despite being subject to the same constraints as everyone else!

If you want them open as normal, then that needs to be because you believe the benefits outweigh the risks to the community from transmission.

Yes. I firmly believe that the benefits to students far outweigh the risks of community transmission, especially as the most vulnerable are now vaccinated and hospitals have increasingly more capacity (and better treatment options).

The benefits to children and teenagers going back to school are huge in my opinion!

@Trumplosttheelection one of our local colleges kept KS3 in their tutor groups as much as possible, with very little movement. They still had bubbles bursting everywhere. I am sure many schools adopted the same approach. I think you are deluded to think that your school did something special over and above the schools that had many cases

Not in England, but for those asking how you socially distance secondary school students.

This is how my youngest brother's school has dealt with it:
Individual desks for everyone.
Groups not big enough to fit in their normal classrooms with 1.5m distancing, have been moved to the library, sports hall, lunch hall, lab and corridors. Children have been occasionally taught outside when the science lab had to be used for whatever reason.
A few classes have been split into two groups and they're using the smaller rooms, where reduced numbers allow for social distancing. They struggled for a bit here with staffing.
Staggered break times.
Staggered lunch times.
Each class comes in at a designated time. If you don't make it by 8.40 if that's your set time, you go back home. They will not allow free roaming around the school (exceptions are made for medical appointments etc).
The library only operates 5.30-6.30pm instead of 8.30-6.30 like it used to be (school finishes at 5pm).
Only one space designated for PE. Students been taken to local open spaces if two groups clash, they exercise in parks, on the playground or come up with creative ideas on how to do PE in the classroom. Not ideal, but nor is the pandemic.

It's a big 3-18 school and they have been open ever since September with no major disruptions or outbreaks. Schools in this country never closed despite the 2nd and 3rd wave and a huge number of cases (1,400 incidence a couple of weeks ago). In 6 months they've only sent home one class of 30, once. Everything else has been normal, and no transmission has happened inside of school. A few close contacts have had to isolate but we're not talking large numbers here. It also helps that masks are compulsory from the age of 6 so the kids have been socially distanced AND masked.

It's doable. It requires a tonne of organisation, planning and resources. The education department spent the whole summer planning for this, and it's paid off.

Forgot to say, absolutely no movement between classrooms. Students stay in one classroom and teachers rotate. No sets are happening this year, apart from years 10-12 (exam and specialisation years in this particular country).

To achieve social distancing you would need to keep all of the kids apart all the time, which would be near enough impossible with all pupils in. My then year 6’s school managed social distancing when they went back in June, but they had bubbles of 8-9 with a fixed teacher and TA, spread out desks, no contact whatsoever with the other bubbles, eating lunch at their desks, and organised games outside at break and lunch in their bubble that didn’t involve them getting close to each other. I very much doubt your school is operating on those lines!

If your school has a low number of cases then that is down to luck. At my youngest’s school one class had to isolate twice, none of the others at all. Does that mean that class were doing something wrong?

Us4Them by any chance?

@EileenGC

Forgot to say, absolutely no movement between classrooms. Students stay in one classroom and teachers rotate. No sets are happening this year, apart from years 10-12 (exam and specialisation years in this particular country).

How do they manage options subjects? One class won’t be the same class for every lesson.

Secondary support staff member here. 1500 pupils. We have had a very small number of cases and no large numbers needing to isolate. Lots of very sensible rules in place following government guidance and health and safety team working incredibly hard, alongside all other staff. However, our small number of cases is mainly down to sheer luck. Teens are not social distancing, particularly outside of the classroom and many can't be bothered to wear masks. Staff cannot monitor their behaviour all the time. They are told to sit apart on the bus but do as they please as soon as they are out of sight. They cross bubbles because their friend/person they have beef with is there. They are outside for once after being shut in at home and want to run around and generally hurl themselves at each other. I could go on...... Teens typically think they are invincible and struggle to relate their own behaviour to its effects on others. It's how their brains work and is part of their development. I'm afraid any parent who rather smugly believes their dc's school is full of kids following all the rules is delusional. Your school will be telling you all about the rules/changes/safety measures they have spent weeks developing and honing because that's the best they can do and what you want to hear. What they won't tell you is that it is nigh on impossible to persuade all teens to follow the rules and impossible to monitor everyone. For context, my school is a state school and we generally have good behaviour and reasonably supportive parents.

Not in England, but for those asking how you socially distance secondary school students.
This is how my youngest brother's school has dealt with it:
Individual desks for everyone.
Groups not big enough to fit in their normal classrooms with 1.5m distancing, have been moved to the library, sports hall, lunch hall, lab and corridors. Children have been occasionally taught outside when the science lab had to be used for whatever reason.

Unfortunately none of that is possible in most England secondary schools. Other than small A Level groups, there are no groups that fit in their normal classrooms with 1.5 m distancing. To achieve this, you could only have in about a third of the class. And there just isn't enough space in the library (which is used for teaching anyway), sports hall (repurposed half as a test centre and half as changing area to avoid changing room congestion), labs (all used for normal teaching) or corridors (built narrow to save money, the student have to walk single file). The weather is not conducive to teaching outside and many schools have very little outside space anyway.

DC's school has implemented a lot off the things on here (staggered starts, ends and breaktimes, specified break areas, minimising movement, fixed seating plans, reorganising timetable so that same groups stay together, channeling students through holding areas to avoid beginning of day congestion) but the simple fact is that there are too many people in too small a space.

There are good reasons to treat primary and secondary differently:

• numbers and bubble size
• transport (inc large groups at secondary using public transport.
• ability to engage with online learning.
• age and level of risk

You then get into a trade off between benefit and risk eg childcare and safety versus educational outcomes.

You can see the government has already made a different decision about nurseries versus schools. I don’t think it would be surprising if primaries and secondaries were treated differently.

Scottish scientists advising the government said yesterday the 2m distance rule would need to be implemented in secondary school and on school transport and where possible in primary schools. I believe this will only work with a rota system. Whether or not the vulnerable are vaccinated, if cases are allowed to run rampant like in December we risk the chances of mutations and back to square one we go.

Even if you limit movement around the building, you can't deliver the full curriculum from one room in secondary. You can't do staggered drop off/pick up times when kids need to all be on the same bus home.

You can't keep a class and teacher in a bubble when different teachers deliver different subjects and move around the school, going in different classrooms.

FWIW - I do think secondaries need to go back too, but can easily see why its easier to keep the numbers of people exposed by one asymptomatic child or staff member in primary than secondary, and why it might seem "safer" to get primaries back, particularly given primary aged kids are less likely to be able to learn remotely well.

Year groups kept apart, masks at all times except eating and lessons, staggered and separate arrivals.

🤣 My child's schools and colleges said they did these things too. But maybe ask the kids what actually happened. For example in my child’s secondary school the reality was year groups did mix at times in school because some teens don’t do as they’re told. They also waited for each other once they were away from the school so staggered start and finish times were not very effective. That’s without mentioning some kids not bothering to wipe their desks down as asked, only using sanitiser on one hand and catapulting masks at each other. Then hanging around the park doing what teens do. It’s a pretty average secondary school, this is the reality of kids that age when they get together. I want my kids back to school as soon as the scientist say it’s the right thing, but let’s not pretend social distancing is a thing. If you think it is, you are very naive or sheltered.

And that is not a dog at teachers, they have been amazing throughout. But with 1200 kids + age 11-16 to control, it’s impossible.

*dig