So if we're going to live with covid

[Lelophants]

And counties like Australia and NZ have a no covid policy, how on earth will we integrate? I know the UK is too far gone. But how will we be allowed to travel if we keep getting vaccinnes but they don't always stop transmission because we have constantly new strains?

Or do you think other countries will give up on no covid policies too?

I'm going to chill the fuck out, watch the matrix and hope I wake up

While the Australian PM may well want to open up he's changed his tune lately as he's finally realised it would be electoral poison to fling open borders anytime soon. There is serious distaste for the 'live with Covid proposition' amongst the community.

If and when vaccines become available here ( we currently have none , which is fair as we do not have the need for them comparatively to other nations except for frontline and quarantine workers) I still don't see quarantine measures being lifted in a hurry given the new variants appearing. If poorer nations are not vaccinated soon, it will matter very little if wealthier democracies have all been vaccinated. Covid will continue to mutate.

Neither countries economy is overly suffering. We've taken a hit yes, but not on the scale other nations have.

NZ's economy www.ft.com/content/b8c4ab58-99db-4af2-9449-5fd70a9235ce

Australia's economy www.ft.com/content/ac98dd24-9edb-4618-a9af-5ab4cf892262

Australia is more likely to suffer from our current governments ham fisted approach to China and its ridiculous failure to comply with global climate change positions and its clinging to coal as our salvation.
I believe the South Pacific region and parts of Asia will do pretty well compared to the Northern Hemisphere and South America at least for the next few years.

I doubt very much that after the luck we have had, and the evidence we see globally that we'll take our chances at this point. Why would we?

And Oaktree55. Check your glee. That's a pretty ordinary response.

I keep thinking about NZ

In a way it’s in a great position but also it’s not. We have always been screwed and have had to deal with covid and no choices

How can they choose to open up now given what that will mean for younger people who might not get a vaccine? Or the older ones who don’t/can’t take.

It will be a muddle for a few years

Aus and NZ will stay closed until all their citizens are vaccinated. They may then open up to tourists who can present proof of vaccination plus a negative test- if they want to get that sector going again. Hopefully it will become easier for families to visit people in Aus/NZ anyway.

Wakeupalready does it not freak you out that you'll likely be unable to leave the country for several years?

Zero Covid is a bonkers strategy. Who on earth is prepared to live a half life like this for a day longer than necessary? People have always, and will always get sick and die. It is very sad, but so is our whole way of life right now.

We need to learn to live with Covid, continue to work on better treatments and better vaccines alongside our normal lives. We need to build on everything we have learned to avoid seeing the like again in our lifetime.

I was talking to my friend who lives in NZ about this recently. He says there's a lot of debate there about this at the moment, about if, how and when they'll move from zero Covid to managed Covid. He thinks they will do so by next winter (their summer) as there will be too much pressure from the tourism industry by then. And hopefully they'll have people vaccinated by then. He says people are really glad to be in NZ right now and all feel very sorry for us in lockdowns, but I don't think they're imagining they can remain closed forever. It's quite a mindset change for them though, and won't be easy for everyone, especially those who don't work in tourism and don't have any family or friends abroad who prefer to stay at they are.

I was wondering this, if everyone has a vaccine every year, new one for new variants, will we still have to self isolate every time there is a case we've been in contact with? Revolving door at school still?

Yes we are going to live with it - but it won't be of the same virulence and with the same mortality as it is now. Hard to believe now, but in time it will be inconsequential

Primcess 'sacrifice people we don't care about so we aren't inconvenienced'. It's far more than inconvenience though. Almost everything is being sacrificed to try to reduce the incidence of covid now. My elderly relation commented that now that older people have been vaccinated it's everybody else who will bear the brunt of the restrictions. The cost to the economy, mental health problems which ultimately impact physical health too, lost jobs, lost education etc etc. Elderly people aren't losing their jobs or their pensions.

@MaxNormal

Vaccines are not yet the game changer we hope they may be, and as we open up Lockdown for the third time with only 1 or 2% vaccinated we'll find out their limitations I expect

Over 15 million in the UK are now vaccinated, why are you getting your percentages from?

Vaccinated means vaccinated, past tense, finished, done, to me.

Not, "had the first jab three weeks ago and in hospital with suspected covid now" as a relative of mine is tonight.

@rogueantimatter

Primcess 'sacrifice people we don't care about so we aren't inconvenienced'. It's far more than inconvenience though. Almost everything is being sacrificed to try to reduce the incidence of covid now. My elderly relation commented that now that older people have been vaccinated it's everybody else who will bear the brunt of the restrictions. The cost to the economy, mental health problems which ultimately impact physical health too, lost jobs, lost education etc etc. Elderly people aren't losing their jobs or their pensions.

That's why we should do it properly this time and not just set the scene for Lockdown 4, which will exacerbate all the problems you mention.

I'm sick of looking at New Zealand living normal lives while we go back into lockdown again.

@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow

I keep thinking about NZ

In a way it’s in a great position but also it’s not. We have always been screwed and have had to deal with covid and no choices

How can they choose to open up now given what that will mean for younger people who might not get a vaccine? Or the older ones who don’t/can’t take.

It will be a muddle for a few years

Meanwhile they've not been going in and out of restrictions and lockdowns for 9 of the last 12 months though.

And they don't have 130,000 fewer citizens due to covid like we do.

I know which I'd choose.

If I lived in NZ my oldest friend would still be alive, my kids would be in school, and I'd have seen my parents in 2020.

No contest.

@LimitIsUp

Yes we are going to live with it - but it won't be of the same virulence and with the same mortality as it is now. Hard to believe now, but in time it will be inconsequential

I'm not sure we know that yet.

And it doesn't have to be more virulent if it's more transmissible. If anything, more transmissible means more death, just because of sheer maths.

Pretty amused thinking I'm living a "half life" here in Australia.

@SuperbGorgonzola

Zero Covid is a bonkers strategy. Who on earth is prepared to live a half life like this for a day longer than necessary? People have always, and will always get sick and die. It is very sad, but so is our whole way of life right now.

We need to learn to live with Covid, continue to work on better treatments and better vaccines alongside our normal lives. We need to build on everything we have learned to avoid seeing the like again in our lifetime.

Those of us who understand that lockdown isn't the cause of any problems, not controlling covid so you end up having to have a lockdown is the cause.

Those of us who understand that either we do it now, or we risk having to do it again later, - only with more of us dead. Again.

Those of us who look at the countries who are doing zero covid. and wish we lived there, with our children in school and our unrestricted lives.

(They're the ones with 100,000 fewer deaths than us and the pretty healthy looking economies.)

Those of us who understand consequences, delayed gratification and the greater good.

Those of us who understand that the country's not going to be vaccinated until the autumn so opening up in March is going to cause a lot of infection and death among the partially or completely unvaccinated.

Those of us who don't want to gamble with any more British people's lives now that there are multiple variants of concern on the scene.

Those of us who are heartsick that covid had killed 130,000 British people unnecessarily and want to end it. Not let it simmer at the 12,000 covid deaths a month level that some people seem quite comfortable with.

Those of us for whom it's not just about what we want, it's what needs to be done.

What's bonkers is looking at countries with no covid death week after week, normal lives, and healthy economies and going "NAH! Who'd want that?!"

@rawalpindithelabrador

It's not possible to eradicate it. Locking down isn't the answer.

You don't have to eradicate it. Just eliminate it.

Those of us who look at the countries who are doing zero covid. and wish we lived there, with our children in school and our unrestricted lives.

Yes, so do I, so do most people, but at some point all countries will have to decide between keeping borders closed and accepting some risk of covid in the country - the ‘living with covid’ part.

We aren’t going to eradicate it. We could possibly eliminate it within borders, but unless we want to wall ourselves off from the rest of the world forever, that’s not going to be a long-term state. It will still be circulating elsewhere, it will still be developing new strains elsewhere.

Mass vaccination reduces the risk of covid to the risk of seasonal flu and lets us live with it. If you find it appalling that we’d let even one person get covid, why weren’t you advocating for border closures over, say, the 2018 measles outbreaks? After all, none of our children have been vaccinated against measles until they’re 3 by the ‘it doesn’t count unless you’ve had all doses’ criteria’, right?

Covid could be significantly suppressed, as we try to do with other diseases.

But our government is again taking the wrong path, although their earlier failures do make this route feel almost inevitable.

We have been so unlucky to be led by dolts at this time.

@QuickGetTheEggplants

Pretty amused thinking I'm living a "half life" here in Australia.

People say this because it is excruciatingly horrible facing up to how badly the UK has fucked up.

The government are desperate to get beyond covid, as it is a testament to their utter uselessness.

So yes, there will be narrative that a) NZ and Aus have to face up to it sooner or later (nope, they'll vaccinate and have ultra low levels so can eliminate) and b) it isn't that great there anyway (just bullshit, comparatively speaking).

@Oaktree55

Aus/NZ etc will open up once they vax their populations.........and then their problems will begin!

We’ll be in a stronger position then and tables will have turned.

Ummm ... how exactly did you jump to this conclusion?

@KleineDracheKokosnuss

Covid cannot be eradicated. I’m glad that people are starting to see that now.

Oz and NZ will open up eventually.

@KleineDracheKokosnuss NZ and Australia will open up eventually once they vaccinate the population and having had a tiny amount of deaths.

@Oaktree55

Aus/NZ etc will open up once they vax their populations.........and then their problems will begin!

We’ll be in a stronger position then and tables will have turned.

@Oaktree55 why on earth will "their problems begin" if they have vaccinated their populations? Surely what they did was make sure the countries were safe once vaccination and therapeutics were developing and it's paid off.

I'm not sure why our "model" here (if we can call it that) is preferable for so many people. It's not only led to so many deaths and illness, but also to massive financial problems

@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow

I keep thinking about NZ

In a way it’s in a great position but also it’s not. We have always been screwed and have had to deal with covid and no choices

How can they choose to open up now given what that will mean for younger people who might not get a vaccine? Or the older ones who don’t/can’t take.

It will be a muddle for a few years

This is genuinely disordered thinking.

NZ are in a far far better position than the UK, they have scope to move forward sensibly. The UK has only two bad options - 'live with it' (an admission of failure) or invest (never gonna happen, government do not give a shit about the population).

@SuperbGorgonzola

Zero Covid is a bonkers strategy. Who on earth is prepared to live a half life like this for a day longer than necessary? People have always, and will always get sick and die. It is very sad, but so is our whole way of life right now.

We need to learn to live with Covid, continue to work on better treatments and better vaccines alongside our normal lives. We need to build on everything we have learned to avoid seeing the like again in our lifetime.

Do you want to get sick and die? I guess people quite like not dying.