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Other countries offering choice of vaccine

624 replies

doireallyneedaname · 13/02/2021 07:52

I have relatives in Cyprus who are able to choose with vaccine they’d like - AZ or Pfizer.

They have been given an appointment for next week and told that they will be told beforehand which vaccine they are having, and if they want the other they can reschedule for that one.

I just read a news article which seems to confirm this.

Appreciate the population is minuscule compared to the UK and many other countries but given the recent news re AZ efficacy against the SA strain (which I believe will likely be the same against further mutations) - I can’t help but wish we’d order more Pfizer and give people the choice.

OP posts:
minchinfin · 13/02/2021 11:18

They're actually reserving it for older people with crapper immune systems which is exactly as it should be - not because it's better but because mRNA vaccines seem to be able to provoke a stronger immune response than vector vaccines in people with dampened down immunes systems, as happens with age.

lightand · 13/02/2021 11:19

There will be more and more information coming out about all vaccines. One of the reasons I am glad I shall be nearer the end of the queue, than the beginning.

riveted1 · 13/02/2021 11:22

@doireallyneedaname You have completely missed the point

The country is in a mess because the government ignored all scientific advice from the very beginning.

They now need to take guidance regarding the best way to vaccinate the population-which they are. A team of epidemiology, virologists etc know far better than you do the most appropriate strategy to protect public health.

doireallyneedaname · 13/02/2021 11:23

@riveted1 yes they do, but I don’t need a professional to tell me that 80% efficacy is better than 20% - so obviously I would prefer 80%

OP posts:
DenisetheMenace · 13/02/2021 11:26

The Govt. got so much wrong last year. This, they have absolutely right. I’ll consider myself extremely fortunate when it’s my turn and will be grateful to receive either.

doireallyneedaname · 13/02/2021 11:27

@riveted1 also, I can’t remember which company but their vaccine was rendered useless, so instead of giving up completely they designated their facilities to helping with mass production of the Moderna vax. Why is it beyond the realms of possibility that others do that to allow for more available effective vaccine?

OP posts:
CoffeeandCroissant · 13/02/2021 11:28

We don’t know yet whether it provides any protection against severe disease (SA strain) but it seems very unlikely given it’s efficacy of 10-20% against mild - moderate, don’t you think?

But there is lots of uncertainty around those figures:

First: this is an extremely uncertain finding. As the virologist Müge Çevik points out, the study was small: it had 1,700 participants, which sounds reasonable enough, but your study’s statistical power comes from the number of cases, not the number of people in the study. And there were only 42 cases of coronavirus in the control and the treatment arm put together.

Of those 42, 19 had been given the real vaccine, and 23 had the placebo. The study itself isn’t available, but screenshots taken from an online briefing say that it is believed to be 22% effective. But because of the small numbers, the uncertainty around them is huge: the 95% uncertainty interval stretches from 58% to -49% efficacy.

So, while it is very likely that the vaccine is less effective against the South African strain than against the more old-school varieties, it is still likely to give some protection against mild to moderate disease, and it is very possible that it gives much better protection than this study suggests.

The study only looked at younger people — the median age was 31 — so there were no severe cases at all, in either the treatment or the control groups.

Intuitively, you might think that if a vaccine doesn’t protect against mild disease, it won’t have a chance against severe disease. But that’s not how it works. “Most severe disease is a consequence of someone’s immune system not dealing with the level of viral load,” says Stephen Evans, a professor of pharmacoepidemiology at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. “If you drive the viral load down in someone they’re less likely to get severe disease.” It may not be enough to stop them from developing a PCR-detectable, or even a symptomatic, case of the disease, but it might stop them from ending up in hospital.

Or at least that’s the theory, according to our understanding of virology. But it’s not actually been easy to show in the case of Covid because severe disease is, mercifully, rare. Even in the main Lancet study into the safety and efficacy of the Ox/AZ vaccine, there were only 11 severe cases, including one death, among the 11,600 participants in the study. Ten of them, including the death, were in the control group, suggesting a greater-than-90% efficacy against severe disease; but the uncertainty interval (determined using an odds-ratio calculator) is huge, from 99% to 22%. Pfizer’s results are similar; Moderna’s are a bit more robust, but still hard to draw firm conclusions from.
unherd.com/2021/02/how-worrying-is-the-south-africa-variant/

doireallyneedaname · 13/02/2021 11:29

@CoffeeandCroissant believe me, I want nothing more for it to be effective.

OP posts:
riveted1 · 13/02/2021 11:31

@doireallyneedaname

Have you seen all the data? Considered all the caveats, methodology, application to different clinical settings? Understood that this an emerging situation and thought about long term implications? Realised that it is not just about you as an individual but instead involves the entire population?

I’m assuming the answers are no. As I have said upthead, I’m an epidemiologist and fully aware that I am not in a position to decide better than experts who have access to all this info and networks of colleagues.

You’re basing these statements on assumptions and newspaper headlines

ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia · 13/02/2021 11:33

I am in central London and although not particularly health privileged I am not medically vulnerable nor within the higher risk age groups. I will be thrilled with any game changing globally mass injected vaccine! But naturally the leading vaccines as selected by the UK and other medically advance nations.

The mutations will continue whilst the disease is super spreading. And so I believe existing emergency use injected vaccines will be periodically modified to account for evolving mutations.

So many nations are developing and trailing Covid vaccines including the University of Oxford with children.

Hopefully Covid and similar future coronavirus respiratory diseases will become treatable as with influenza.

I can’t wait to accept whatever the NHS injects as happy they would be best to choose accordingly to need for myself and others with different overall health profiles.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccine

doireallyneedaname · 13/02/2021 11:34

@riveted1 Appreciate that, but you can’t deny that Pfizer is a more effective vaccine - that is factual info readily available.

OP posts:
justanotherneighinparadise · 13/02/2021 11:53

Have you listened to the press conferences where the scientists/medical experts discuss the vaccine going forward? They have said that going forward they suspect it will be a yearly injection akin to the flu vaccine. It’s not a one shot and you’re out scenario.

minchinfin · 13/02/2021 11:57

The lack of reported side effects from the Pfizer jab would worry me too - it is not effective at all if it is allowed to warm up too much and I suspect that that is what has happened at a lot of centres and why hardly anyone is getting the usual side effects that you'd expect that show the immune system is working - sore arm, flu like symptoms etc.

Baileysforchristmas · 13/02/2021 12:02

Also all the other vaccines coming through, it’s a waste of time saying one vaccine is better than another. There will be different variants each year so vaccines will have to be adapted.

Prokupatuscrakedatus · 13/02/2021 12:03

You are not obliged to have side effects (to anything).
Just because they are listed as a possibility.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 13/02/2021 12:07

I think this is fascinating. We don't normally have a choice with vaccines because there's usually only 1 available for an indication. It's phenomenal to actually have choice.

I'm a strong supporter of shared-decision making and in most other instances would think the OP is correct to assert that she is entitled to participate in the decision process.

It feels different because of the pandemic. However, I'm open to the option that OP is right to want to be involved in the vaccine selection and I'm wrong for thinking this is different and the overall priority is to vaccinate as many people as possible ahead of further VOC.

*I don't agree with OP on other matters such as relative efficiencies/efficacies etc. but she is upholding a principle here. NB: I would happily take part in a trial that mixed the vaccines (eg, Pfizer for 1st dose, AZ for 2nd or vv).

MrsMauryBallstein · 13/02/2021 12:07

Gosh you've been given a hard time OP.
It isn't unreasonable to point out that we still don't know(= no data) efficacy of AZ vis a vis serious illness/new variants. Govt have started talking about boosters in Autumn, which does suggest that vaccination process might be a longer haul than had been hoped. Nothing wrong with pointing that out.

ItsFriyay · 13/02/2021 12:15

OP are your family in northern Cyprus? A friend said her relatives in N Cyprus have to pay for the jab, might be why they’re given the choice?

doireallyneedaname · 13/02/2021 12:17

@ItsFriyay I know, blimey. I haven’t pointed out anything that isn’t factual either! I feel there’s a lot of patriotism going on. I couldn’t care less who makes the vaccine as long as it saves the most lives and also keeps me and my family safe.

OP posts:
doireallyneedaname · 13/02/2021 12:18

@ItsFriyay sorry, replied to the wrong person!

No they’re not, but that’s really awful!

OP posts:
Pimlicojo · 13/02/2021 12:24

Minchinfin you're concerned at people not suffering side effects and that leads you to conclude that the vaccines might not have been stored properly? Blimey, that's quite a leap!

I have a flu jab every year and never have any side effects other than a sore arm. I always go into things expecting the best, not the worst.

borntobequiet · 13/02/2021 12:28

[quote doireallyneedaname]@riveted1 I hope you’re joking. We are in a mess because of the decisions our “professionals” made.[/quote]
Any mess we’re in is more down to politicians than medical professionals. The vaccine procurement and rollout has been one of the few (mostly) successful features in our handling of this pandemic. I had my first dose of the AZ vaccine yesterday. Feeling a bit under the weather today (just a slight headache, a bit tired and nauseous) but so pleased to have had it! DS said he nearly cried when I told him, it was a bright spot in the ongoing misery that is Covid.

HelloThereMeHearties · 13/02/2021 12:31

The problem here is that your "facts" are really just poorly-understood statistics.

We really don't need a load of people moaning that they read something on Facebook/saw a YouTube video/partially digested something they heard on the news/saw some scary-looking numbers that they don't really understand, demanding a choice in vaccines.

AlwaysLatte · 13/02/2021 12:32

We don't get choices over other vaccines - it's only because there was been so much publicity about the race between pharmaceutical companies to create one. I really think this is one of those situations where we just trust the medical profession.

HelloThereMeHearties · 13/02/2021 12:33

[quote riveted1]@doireallyneedaname

Have you seen all the data? Considered all the caveats, methodology, application to different clinical settings? Understood that this an emerging situation and thought about long term implications? Realised that it is not just about you as an individual but instead involves the entire population?

I’m assuming the answers are no. As I have said upthead, I’m an epidemiologist and fully aware that I am not in a position to decide better than experts who have access to all this info and networks of colleagues.

You’re basing these statements on assumptions and newspaper headlines[/quote]
Worth reading that reply again, OP. Although it doesn't fit with your "facts" so I doubt you'll pay attention to, you know, an actual epidemiologist Hmm

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