Other countries offering choice of vaccine

[doireallyneedaname]

I have relatives in Cyprus who are able to choose with vaccine they’d like - AZ or Pfizer.

They have been given an appointment for next week and told that they will be told beforehand which vaccine they are having, and if they want the other they can reschedule for that one.

I just read a news article which seems to confirm this.

Appreciate the population is minuscule compared to the UK and many other countries but given the recent news re AZ efficacy against the SA strain (which I believe will likely be the same against further mutations) - I can’t help but wish we’d order more Pfizer and give people the choice.

For our current dominant strain yes, but we don’t know if that’s true for the SA mutation or any other for that matter. We do know it is the case for Pfizer though.

I find it hard to believe that so many don’t seem to feel that Pfizer is overall a better vaccine.

It may or may not be, it remains to be seen.

But given we have limited supply of it, it obviously isn’t the best option for everyone as to only give it would mean a much slower process.

Let’s not make perfect the enemy of good.

However, the South African government is giving up on AZ, so I suspect that they don’t think it is at all protective.

I don’t think that’s actual true. They have paused and are reconsidering.

You are just repeating the same stuff in a different manner now op.

@doireallyneedaname

I find it hard to believe that so many don’t seem to feel that Pfizer is overall a better vaccine. I am proud of what our scientists have achieved but it’s not bad to say it how it is!

When it was created we didn’t even have the SA strain and yet it is almost as effective against it as the dominant strain. Does this not show that it is likely to be just as effective against further strains too?

There will and is multiple variants OP. What you dont want to do is back yourself in a corner umming and ahhing waiting for the most effective vaccine.

If it stops you from going in to ICU it’s good enough.

It's not only Germany not giving AZ to the elderly. Same is going on in Spain and other European countries (Just stating what's happening here, I don't have anything against AZ vaccine and I would take it tomorrow if it was offered!).

On the other hand, I know my city has designated the AZ centre to serve all healthcare workers first and foremost. We're currently vaccinating the over 80s and will soon begin the over 70s, but all healthcare workers are getting their jabs simultaneously. It's like two programmes running at the same time. When everyone working in hospitals and care homes has been vaccinated, the remaining AZ vaccines will go to teachers - or at least that's the suggested strategy that needs to be approved next week in my state. Only giving it to U65s is not a major issue, there are plenty of vulnerable people in that age bracket too.

@TheKeatingFive - Quite. They don't have many vaccines yet across the EU and people are angry. Far better to say "Oh that one's no good anyway" than to explain why the EC bought and approved it so late that there wasn't time to get it made to put into arms.

@doireallyneedaname - Reading a science story in the news with about 1% of the information and data has not educated you sufficiently to know better than epidemiologists and virologists.

Totally - I’d be just as happy if it stopped severe disease, but we don’t know if it does. If we did then I wouldn’t care which one we get.

[quote MRex]@doireallyneedaname

1. Oxford Astrazeneca works on the Kent strain, that's the one here right now that needs controlling right now. Vaccinating as many as fast as possible is more important. 2) They have a booster in trials to follow up later.
2. The tests don't look at T-cells
3. Nobody got severe disease and the tests weren't well structured for that; the vaccine is injected not up the nose, symptoms were nose/ throat infection not the vascular and lung issues.
4. Efficacy isn't effectiveness per individual bit overall; younger people are likely to gain better immunity faster.
5. You don't need 95% efficacy to reach herd immunity; the flu vaccine helps enormously at an average 55% efficacy.

Leave it to MHRA and JCVI to decide what's best to do, they understand far more than you do. If you don't want one vaccine for spurious reasons then wait, but when the EU block all Pfizer exports you might need to reconsider.[/quote]
Brilliant post! 👏

No epidemiologist or virologist has said that AZ is as effective as Pfizer, so I don’t know what your point is.

Can I just clarify this post isn’t about not giving AZ to over 65’s - whilst I do think it’s sensible to give the overall more effective vaccine to those who are most vulnerable, that is not the same as “AZ is less effective in over 65’s” which is the reason some countries are changing their strategy.

Well, you get a choice op. You can decline your vaccination. Best of luck. I'm getting off your anxiety merry go round now.

No epidemiologist or virologist has said that AZ is as effective as Pfizer, so I don’t know what your point is.

Again, you’re basing this on infections only.

Pfizer had more hospitalisations among trialists than AZ (which had zero).

Not that I think this is a big deal, but the way the data is reported in the press is far from full information.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@TheKeatingFive,

WRT the South African variant, we don’t have the data one way or the other, due to the trials small size and young age of participants.

However, the South African government is giving up on AZ, so I suspect that they don’t think it is at all protective.[/quote]
They have not "given up".
They have paused the vaccination programme and now with WHO recommendation out, they are still deliberating whether to use them or swap them for J&J.
My h.country,a tiny Island near SA, is currently using AZ on all frontliners.

@bobbiester

In the UK we can't offer a choice of vaccine, because we need to work fast as we're offering a choice of COVID. Kent or Wuhan.

I had a choice, so did everyone who went to the mass test centres in my city. I was part of the front line roll out, if you booked at X you got the AZ vaccination, if you booked at Y you got pz vaccine.

So there is a choice in some places, I went for AZ only for the reason that it’s location was a lot closer to me and the times were more flexible.

Others went for Pz for the same reason.

@doireallyneedaname - You seem to think you have information that doesn't exist. Unless you work for Pfizer, in which case ask them for the vaccine?
Pfizer hasn't been tested in real life conditions against SA variant. Hopefully it works, but Oxford Astrazeneca, Novovax, Janssen and Moderna have all stated they have reduced efficacy and are looking at boosters. Pfizer said publicly that they have "slightly lower efficacy" from serum tests, but nothing more.

Here is real data about Oxford Astrazeneca:
papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3777268
Vaccine efficacy 76% after the first dose and 82% after second dose. Reduces transmission to others by 67%.
No hospitalisations after 22 days, NONE.
Small trial in SA had no severe infections but suggested lower efficacy against mild symptoms.

There's a distinction between what's best on an individual level, and what's best on a population level.

On an individual level, you want the bestest most effective jab going in your arm.

On a population level you want as many doses going in as many arms as possible. Doesn't matter if they're the best or not, as long as they're good enough. That's doubly true when, as is now emerging, the vaccines we have offer some protection against transmission.

Both of the two vaccines we have are significantly better than 'good enough'. Getting doses out protects those individuals AND protects the unvaccinated through reduced transmission AND protects everyone as fewer transmissions means fewer opportunities for variants to develop. On the population level, that's better for everyone, regardless of whether we're rolling out the best of the best.

So, yes, I'd much rather our strategy - 20 vaccinated so far - than one with more choice and finess, but fewer actual doses administered.

(Last sentence should read '20% vaccinated so far'. Ohhh for an edit button!)

God this is pointless. The vast majority of vaccine supply given to old people and CEVs will be Pfizer. Because we had and have a huge supply. See unseemly EU spat over UK ordering strategy.

Does that make you feel better.

Obviously I don’t work for Pfizer - is there really any need for that kind of comment?

I’m fully aware of the efficacy for the current dominant strains, I’m not talking about those. I’m talking about the SA strain which could very well become dominant at some point in the near future meaning our population are being vaccinated with the least effective of all major vaccines available to combat it. Yes the others have said they are “less effective” but their data shows they are still far more effective than AZ at tackling it.

Well, nobody I know in the CEV category has received Pfizer. They have all received AZ.

With Europe blocking deliveries of Pfizer, i’m very relieved we are able to manufacture so many vaccines in the UK, it is a fantastic achievement, we are so lucky, so no I won’t worry which vaccine I will get, also the UK will be one of the first countries to be able to tweak vaccines for each variant, AZ are already working on this, it should be ready by the end of this year.

@CherryRoulade

The vaccines were not signed off for use until December so how could they vaccinate in November?

Personally I think the Government have done a good job

Doireallyneedaname I know many elderly people and CEV people who have been vaccinated. Some Pfizer and some AZ. All happy to have been vaccinated.

In my area they are now calling up people in their 50s for the vaccine which I think is incredible.