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Forcing vaccination

999 replies

Peaceiseveryrhing · 31/01/2021 20:39

Just read this on the Beeb

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-55718553

Personally, I think it's outrageous that employees may insist on vaccination and airlines preventing travel.

A communistic approach! Angry

OP posts:
SushiSoozie · 01/02/2021 18:19

I bet majority of those shouting aren't even registered bone marrow donors

I'm not shouting, but I'm not allowed to donate bone marrow pretty much anywhere in the world as I lived in the Uk in the 80's and 90's. Hmm

AStudyinPink · 01/02/2021 18:20

I said that society and the government will make the rules about who can do what, and if they are that you must have the vaccine to go certain places and do certain things, then I am just fine with that.

As if your right. My right is to continue to believe that, without individual rights, there’s no such thing as a right, just tyranny.

HibernatingTill2030 · 01/02/2021 18:20

@NicolasCage

NeverDropYourMoonCup

I'm happy with your approach, but I'm afraid you're in minority. Also, you can donate organs while still alive- there are people that do that for their parents, partners, siblings. But if people feel so strongly about vaccines I think they should prove they really want to be a part of society and save lives and just donate their kidney to a stranger. I bet majority of those shouting aren't even registered bone marrow donors.

Donating a kidney is vastly different to having a vaccine. One is major surgery that removes a pretty important organ, and the other is a jab in the arm with fairly predictable outcome long term. The only comparison is that currently you can't be forced to do either (and neither should you be).
Arobase · 01/02/2021 18:21

@Hammonds

I think some people are going to be really fucking disappointed when places don’t close to to people that haven’t been vaccinated.
I think it's inevitable that there will be exceptions for people who cannot be vaccinated for good reason, but there will be a requirement that they produce some sort of proof.

Given the need to protect those people, it is all the more justifiable to refuse to accept people with no valid reason not be vaccinated.

NeverDropYourMoonCup · 01/02/2021 18:23

@NicolasCage

NeverDropYourMoonCup

I'm happy with your approach, but I'm afraid you're in minority. Also, you can donate organs while still alive- there are people that do that for their parents, partners, siblings. But if people feel so strongly about vaccines I think they should prove they really want to be a part of society and save lives and just donate their kidney to a stranger. I bet majority of those shouting aren't even registered bone marrow donors.

Marrow donors? - it may well have changed since I was giving blood, but at that time, at least, they only wanted male donors. And I think the maximum age for registering was 30, as they didn't particularly want the expense of testing older people's samples when they were less likely to be successful if used.
SushiSoozie · 01/02/2021 18:26

My right is to continue to believe that, without individual rights, there’s no such thing as a right, just tyranny

How Trumpian of you. Yet again, you have individual rights; such as the right not to be vaccinated. What about that are you not getting?

You don't just want your individual right to not be vaccinated, you also want the right to not have any consequences of you exercising that right, and that's where you run into society and their rights.

What about this is so difficult for you?

NicolasCage · 01/02/2021 18:26

@Arobase

I bet majority of those shouting aren't even registered bone marrow donors.

I am Smile

Happy to hear that, me too, but the numbers don't lie - there's only 10,5 million people registered with DKMS WORLDWIDE. It's a drop in the ocean.
AStudyinPink · 01/02/2021 18:28

They 100% are. They were on another thread recently relentlessly arguing that unless someone could explain something (in that case the concept of infinity)...

And much as it pains me to continue with this, no I wasn’t. I was asking for an explanation of the claim that the Universe is infinite. I understand what “infinity” means. Your problem then (as now) was that you misunderstood what others were saying to the point that it rendered you incoherent, and then you started misrepresenting what they were saying because you lacked another strategy to win the argument.

Inastatus · 01/02/2021 18:30

@Anotheruser02

My friend has this attitude of 'I'm not having it, they don't know enough about it' but then expects to ride the heard immunity and enjoy life when everyone else has. Selfish cunt, I look at her very differently now.
Yes, I’ve got a ‘friend’ like that too and I agree, it’s a very selfish attitude. I think she might just change her mind when she realises she can’t fly off on her jolly hols without being jabbed!
AStudyinPink · 01/02/2021 18:31

Yet again, you have individual rights; such as the right not to be vaccinated. What about that are you not getting?

Nothing. I do get it.

You don't just want your individual right to not be vaccinated, you also want the right to not have any consequences of you exercising that right, and that's where you run into society and their rights.

No, I don’t. I want to be able to exercise my right without you insisting you can exclude me from the normal functions of my life. Because that is you attempting to exercise a right you don’t actually have. It is you failing to comprehend where your rights over others end.

Sorka · 01/02/2021 18:31

Women who are pregnant or who would like to fall pregnant within three months are advised not to have the jab. So if employers can demand their staff get vaccinated or give a bloody good reason why not this forces women to disclose their pregnancy plans and hopes. Women have a hard enough time in the workplace with bosses wondering if they might have kids without having to disclose that they’re trying.

AStudyinPink · 01/02/2021 18:33

So if employers can demand their staff get vaccinated or give a bloody good reason why not this forces women to disclose their pregnancy plans and hopes.

Yep. It is morally bankrupt nonsense. Forcing women of childbearing age to compromise their ability to have children or disclose their private information in such a way that it might affect their employment.

It won’t happen. These people need to avail themselves of a grip.

NicolasCage · 01/02/2021 18:36

NeverDropYourMoonCup

The age limit is 55, but they keep your sample until you're 61. They need more male donors because majority of those registered are women, but any healthy person can register. My point is that for some people their 'duty' to protect vulnerable in society stops at vaccination.

HibernatingTill2030
And again where do we draw a line of personal choice vs forcing/asking people to do something the greater good? Kidney transplant is a serious medical procedure, but post - surgery risk is very low, same with vaccine. There were instances were vaccines led to serious side effects like narcolepsy. I agree it is very rare and most people are just fine, but are you happy with pushing people to do something that may result in their quality of life getting worse?

Barbadosgirl · 01/02/2021 18:40

@SushiSoozie

You are not endangering them any more than they are endangering themselves. They have the choice to separate themselves from other people. Each person has the choice about whether to accept medical intervention. It’s not okay to say other people have to do X, Y or X because your freedom is important. Coerce yourself, not others.

People should hide themselves away because you won't get a vaccine? No thanks. You hide, if you're that bothered.
The rules are going to be made in the best interests of the greatest number, and in the interest of the vulnerable, the elderly etc. If you choose not to be socially responsible and do the right things for others, fine. But don't expect the rest of society to be ok with it and make accomodations for you.

You want your individialistic rights..you have them. But society has rights too, and yours dont trump everyone elses. Stop pretending anyone is going to make you do anything, they aren't. If you don't like the possible consequences of refusing, maybe think again.

Exactly. I think what people want here is freedom from consequence. Of course people should be free to choose whether they get the vaccine. For the same reason airlines and venues should have the freedom to choose to say no to you if you don’t. Why should they be coerced into accepting something they don’t want?
AStudyinPink · 01/02/2021 18:41

There were instances were vaccines led to serious side effects like narcolepsy. I agree it is very rare and most people are just fine, but are you happy with pushing people to do something that may result in their quality of life getting worse?

I think they’re okay with this. Can’t think why. Maybe COVID has disturbed the balance of their reason.

AStudyinPink · 01/02/2021 18:43

I think what people want here is freedom from consequence. Of course people should be free to choose whether they get the vaccine. For the same reason airlines and venues should have the freedom to choose to say no to you if you don’t. Why should they be coerced into accepting something they don’t want?

Because businesses don’t have the same rights as people. They have to follow laws, though, just like people do. And these “consequences” you are suggesting (punishments, really, which would undermine people’s right to exercise their bodily autonomy) wouldn’t be lawful.

If that changes, I’ll come back to this thread. Until then, I, and others who are saying what I am saying, are right, and that’s all there is to it.

LadyMayoGoodway · 01/02/2021 18:53

So very early signs out of Israel who are furthest ahead with their vaccinations are showing it’s slowing down infection numbers
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55706855

Barbadosgirl · 01/02/2021 18:54

“If that changes, I’ll come back to this thread. Until then, I, and others who are saying what I am saying, are right, and that’s all there is to it.”

Ha ha, are you serious?! Were you in the debate team? If you think you are going to win an argument with a corporate like an airline that they should respect your authoritah and vitiate their insurance by giving you your god given right to fly to Marbs because you stamp your foot and tell them they don’t have the same rights as you and that is all there is to it then good luck. I don’t think it is going to work though.

LadyMayoGoodway · 01/02/2021 18:55

@AStudyinPink what if you had to travel to a country that required you to have a had a certain vaccination as part of your job? Would you leave that job?

UrAWizHarry · 01/02/2021 18:58

@AStudyinPink

No, it's how people look when they are deliberately misunderstanding what people are saying in order to score cheap internet points.

In what way did that happen, then?

Since you started posting. It's pretty clear you are talking mostly utter shite and are not nearly as clever as you very clearly think you are.
Coyoacan · 01/02/2021 20:02

My friend has this attitude of 'I'm not having it, they don't know enough about it' but then expects to ride the heard immunity and enjoy life when everyone else has. Selfish cunt, I look at her very differently now

Is this where the problem lies, some people believing we are going to achieve herd immunity?

lightand · 01/02/2021 20:11

I do think lots think we will get herd immunity - I thought the country was told we wouldnt?
And many think the virus will be stopped by vaccination - unlikely?

jacks11 · 01/02/2021 20:16

@AStudyinPink

But we do require people to have certain vaccines (with very specific and narrow spectrum of exemptions) to do certain jobs already. I am required to have certain vaccines in order to be employed by the NHS (not related to covid). And would need the same for the vast, vast number of reputable private healthcare providers. This is not for my protection, it for the protection of patients. Is this an infringement of my rights? I don’t think it is. I could have refused to have the vaccinations required. But the consequence would be I could not be employed by most potential employers due to my choice. I have autonomy, but I must also bear the consequences of wielding that autonomy in a way which is in conflict with the requirements of employers and wider society.

I would argue carers of vulnerable people (whether due to age, health problems or disability) whether in a care/residential setting or caring for people in their own homes, also have a responsibility to those they care for. They should have a vaccine- unless they have a medical exemption, of course. This could apply to many roles. You can chose not to, but may need to seek alternative employment.

If you chose not to have a vaccine, some businesses (airlines, hotels/b&b’s) may refuse your business. Because you are likely to pose a higher risk than an unvaccinated person (neither are zero risk) and could, for example, require them to shut their business if you were later to test positive. Some countries may not wish you to visit as you pose a higher risk than a vaccinated individual. It’s not an infringement of your rights for others- whether that is an individual, organisation/business or country- to decide that the risk you pose as a result of your choice not to be vaccinated means they do not want your custom/business/ visit/ services or to work for them. Obviously, universal things like healthcare are a different matter.

Hammonds · 01/02/2021 20:26

I think it's inevitable that there will be exceptions for people who cannot be vaccinated for good reason, but there will be a requirement that they produce some sort of proof

Given the need to protect those people, it is all the more justifiable to refuse to accept people with no valid reason not be vaccinated

The government have already said it has no plans to do this so where are you getting your train of thought that it will Confused

The government will not pass a law on something that is going to burn its self out when the over 50s are vaccinated and they younger fitter people can deal with the virus. Are you one of the people that think we are are going to be in the grips of covid forever?

We’re not.

Hammonds · 01/02/2021 20:34

The Government : ‘we have no plans for vaccine passport’

MN : ‘it’s your your own fault when your not allowed in places if you’ve not got a Vac ID’

The Government : ‘Err like we said we’ve no plans for a Vac ID/passport’

MN : ‘is your choice to not have a vaccine but it’s totally justifiable for employer’s to sack you and your not allowed in to events or society’

Government: ‘ look we’re not going to make you have a vaccine passport!’

MN ‘ so if all your friends are going to the pub and your not allowed in blame your self..’

I think this place is full of bots on the wind up to be honest.