Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Covid

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

Original poster

Forcing vaccination

999 replies

Peaceiseveryrhing · 31/01/2021 20:39

Just read this on the Beeb

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-55718553

Personally, I think it's outrageous that employees may insist on vaccination and airlines preventing travel.

A communistic approach! Angry

OP posts:
GreenWillow · 01/02/2021 10:44

@Frequentflier

Only in the UK would they have 100,000 deaths and call Australia's COVID success a "race to the bottom". :)
I refer to the idea of mandatory vaccines in general.

The only reason anybody could consider this a good idea is because they don’t fully understand the admittedly complex issues around the relationship between the Individual and the State.

SchrodingersImmigrant · 01/02/2021 10:44

And just like this the word "discrimination" looses all the value🤷🏻🤦

GreenWillow · 01/02/2021 10:45

@TrufflyPig

cannot legally discriminate on the grounds of disability, or religion

Refusing to vaccinate is neither of these things. You are reaching pretty far there.

Applying a blanket policy of any kind nearly always results in indirect discrimination.

The trouble is, so many people don’t really understand what indirect discrimination is, and how it differs from direct discrimination.

GreenWillow · 01/02/2021 10:46

@SchrodingersImmigrant

And just like this the word "discrimination" looses all the value🤷🏻🤦
No, you just don’t really understand the concept.
AStudyinPink · 01/02/2021 10:46

Refusing to vaccinate is neither of these things. You are reaching pretty far there.

It might well be. Let’s imagine a person is on the autistic spectrum. They refuse the vaccine. A company refuses them a job. The company doesn’t work with very vulnerable people or anything. The person says, “I have a registered disability, and (partly, perhaps entirely) as a result of that disability I find myself greatly distressed by the thought of getting the vaccine and am unable to get it.”

Their policy is then discriminatory. They shouldn’t be intruding on that person’s ability to make their own decisions anyway, but in this case, if a diagnosed condition prevented a person from being able to choose the vaccine, they would be breaking the law if they refused employment on that basis.

AStudyinPink · 01/02/2021 10:46

And just like this the word "discrimination" looses all the value🤷🏻🤦

Not really.

GreenWillow · 01/02/2021 10:49

Indeed @AStudyinPink.

Consider also a deeply religious person who believes their life (and death) is in the hands of their god, and taking a vaccine is interfering in that will.

I can totally see how such religious views would make somebody very unwilling to have a vaccine.

Et voila, indirect discrimination on the grounds of religion.

SchrodingersImmigrant · 01/02/2021 10:49

@AStudyinPink

And just like this the word "discrimination" looses all the value🤷🏻🤦

Not really.

Yes it does. If you overuse serious word on bullshit claims, it starts losing it's value.
AStudyinPink · 01/02/2021 10:51

SchrodingersImmigrant

It’s only your opinion that they are bullshit claims. If you think so, say why?

Frequentflier · 01/02/2021 10:51

Oh well, Green Willow I guess none of those countries have understood this complex relationship then either. No doubt they will live with it, as they go out to restaurants, open up schools and carry on with life while we quibble over the special feelings of a tiny minority.

AStudyinPink · 01/02/2021 10:51

GreenWillow

Indeed. Religion is a protected characteristic.

GreenWillow · 01/02/2021 10:52

Parliament has laid down what does and does not constitute discrimination though - do you really think the will of Parliament somehow equates to “bullshit claims”?

AStudyinPink · 01/02/2021 10:53

Why does it always end up that people say, “In China they do X”? In France they do Y”? I don’t live in China and I don’t live in France. Our laws are the ones we have to consider, not the laws of other countries.

longwayoff · 01/02/2021 10:53

Good morning madam. Would you like to get on this train/plane/other? You would, excellent. There are a few formalities to complete. Biometric passport? Yes. Ticket to travel? Yes. Yellow fever and other necessary immunisations? Yes, except for Covid as that would be trespassing upon my personal freedoms and encouraging Communism to spread its evil web across the world. In that case, madam, you are an idiot and we're not prepared to travel with you. Angry snot fair.

AStudyinPink · 01/02/2021 10:54

In that case, madam, you are an idiot and we're not prepared to travel with you. angry snot fair.

They can try it. I suspect the courts will strike it down.

Zippy1510 · 01/02/2021 10:55

@GreenWillow Bang away!! We don't actually have enough data yet to say what the impact on transmission and herd immunity will be- because we do not yet have a high enough proportion of the population vaccinated to see it in practice and unsurprisingly during clinical trial we do not then get to take the participants and confine them to an artificial community, introduce the virus and watch transmission rates. The majority of vaccines DO have some impact on transmission, many substantially so. I would be very surprised if the current vaccines have no impact at all. And that's in my professional opinion as a scientist, with a PhD in microbiology who manages a research group focused on antimicrobial development.

redsquirrelfan · 01/02/2021 10:56

We don't force vaccination for any other illness except the odd thing like yellow fever, but there are plenty of places to visit if you don't want to have vaccinations. So I don't know why we would force it for this, and it's not fair to restrict access to the vaccinated when huge numbers of people won't be vaccinated for months anyway and kids won't be at all.

I make one exception. If you work in care, you need to be vaccinated. If you don't want to be vaccinated, work in a different sector.

KathleenTurnerOverdrive · 01/02/2021 11:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

GreenWillow · 01/02/2021 11:01

[quote Zippy1510]@GreenWillow Bang away!! We don't actually have enough data yet to say what the impact on transmission and herd immunity will be- because we do not yet have a high enough proportion of the population vaccinated to see it in practice and unsurprisingly during clinical trial we do not then get to take the participants and confine them to an artificial community, introduce the virus and watch transmission rates. The majority of vaccines DO have some impact on transmission, many substantially so. I would be very surprised if the current vaccines have no impact at all. And that's in my professional opinion as a scientist, with a PhD in microbiology who manages a research group focused on antimicrobial development.[/quote]
I would be very surprised if the current vaccines have no impact at all

Perhaps, but a scientist as eminent as you doesn’t need me to point out, this is nowhere near good enough.

I’m honestly getting so worried here, all logic, critical thinking and understanding of constitutional law have already gone out of the window in this pandemic.

Looks like the whole concept of the scientific method is rapidly heading in the same direction.

DedlyMedally · 01/02/2021 11:02

As long as it doesn't lead to people who are currently able to work remotely being fired.
I'd prefer to wait the vaccine out for a time, but I'm also young and not in any risk categories.
I think it's fair to keep people out of non-essential businesses if they don't want to vaccinate and I'm happy to not travel or go to pubs in a while if that's what's necessary.

GreenWillow · 01/02/2021 11:04

@KathleenTurnerOverdrive

Applying a blanket policy of any kind nearly always results in indirect discrimination.

No it isn't.

Being a thick as shite in the neck of a bottle isn't a protected characteristic.

I’ve reported your personal attack, thanks for that.

Citizens advice have published a really user friendly guide to indirect discrimination, I suggest you have a read here

TrufflyPig · 01/02/2021 11:05

Yes it does. If you overuse serious word on bullshit claims, it starts losing it's value.

Exactly! People are using very niche examples to claim discrimination where there is none. You can do it for anything.

For example my husband used to work for a company that insisted on monthly drug tests and random breathalyser tests. They wouldn't employ you if you didn't consent.

Now if were a functioning alcoholic I would have drink every day or else I might go into withdrawal and die, policy is discriminatory. If I were using medicinal cannabis for my epilepsy it would be discriminatory.

It's not of course but there's always a tenous argument.

CliffordDanger · 01/02/2021 11:06

Being an anti-vaxxer isn't a protected characteristic. As PP have said, private companies doing what they want is the opposite of communism, so I don't understand why that's being brought into things (well, I do, obviously, but I don't want to engage with it...).

I think it's best if people have the vaccine if they're able to because I believe that it will help protect them and others from an awful illness.

GreenWillow · 01/02/2021 11:07

I’ll post the link again, as so many posters don’t understand the concept.

Citizens Advice explanation of Indirect Discrimination

GreenWillow · 01/02/2021 11:08

@CliffordDanger

Being an anti-vaxxer isn't a protected characteristic. As PP have said, private companies doing what they want is the opposite of communism, so I don't understand why that's being brought into things (well, I do, obviously, but I don't want to engage with it...).

I think it's best if people have the vaccine if they're able to because I believe that it will help protect them and others from an awful illness.

Do you not get the link between being religious and being an anti vaxxer?