What do EU nationals think of the vaccines mess?

[Frazzled2207]

I’m a committed remainer. But the EU really did mess up last night. More seriously they are not in a good position right now with regards vaccine supply. Lots of anti-Eu posts here right now from committed remainers like me.

Just wondering what EU citizens make of all this and is there any bad feeling towards the UK? Do you think the EU has a right to some of the UK’s vaccine supply? Are people angry at the fact that the UK was able to secure more vaccines more quickly? Or are we coming across as selfish idiots?
Generally curious and am not here to start an argument

The contract lawyers will be wrangling over this for some time to come, but my in-house lawyer assured me that:

1. There is no such thing as ‘first come first served’ in this type of contract law. All contracts are treated equally irrespective of date of signing.

1. When it became evident that AZ could not deliver in a timely way against both contracts, supply should have been divided between the U.K. and the EU. (However that was AZ’s problem, not the UKs.

1. The AZ / EU contract makes it clear that the EU is entitled to vaccines manufactured in the U.K.

1. It also states explicitly that no other contract will impede the supply of vaccine to the EU (bullet E).

No-one knows what the U.K / AZ states - maybe they did promise to prioritise U.K. orders. If so, it’s an even bigger mistake to have denied it to the EU.

I think the EU is justified in being cheesed off with AZ, but it really should have remained an issue of contract negotiations and not escalated into a mini international incident.

Thanks @MesmerisingMinerva.

Despite investment however, surely it is just business practice to first supply people who have ordered first?

And while they may have the emergency aspect fuelling them to potentially demand that AZ fulfil EU orders first, it probably isn’t quite as clear cut as that as AZ also has a plant in the UK and in any case things like this are very damaging for future relations...?

And to then say they could subvert Pfizer from the UK seems retaliatory and strange as the UK just placed the AZ order first as far as I can tell - they weren’t subverting it from the EU?

All of this doesn’t discount the fact that we should all be trying to co-operate on this globally.

On the investment side - if they invested in AZ so early and so heavily why didn’t they also place an order?

Completely agree that the UK government is corrupt. One only has to look at the numerous contracts for useless buddies in the past year to know that.

Yes @tara671 it was a really badly judged move. I agree and made that clear. Ireland is a minor EU nation - by population - I was actually highlighting how IN SPITE OF BEING SMALL they are equal to others as they basically phoned the commission and put a stop to it. The government in Westminster barely acknowledge the devolved nations in the UK, let alone listen to them.

@Floppywin yes, I believe the system of elections in the EU institutions is democratic. Not my fault no-one in the UK was educated about this.

In a few weeks this, admittedly huge cock up will have blown over (as I said, they made a bad move and backtracked very quickly) and you will all still be on an isolated island reaping the benefits of your beloved Brexit. Meanwhile my inbox is overflowing with requests for help to set up EU subsidiaries for UK companies who have been royally screwed over by a completely inept and thoroughly dishonest government. Trust me when I say I take absolutely no pleasure in this.

I think the jingoism, gloating and smugness demonstrated by the UK media and some individuals on here makes me despair of humanity

HilaryThorpe - if the EU had been well organised about vaccines and UK hadn’t, the sound of anti Brexit and anti British gloating would have been heard as far away as North Korea.

@SkiingIsHeaven

It's my understanding of the whole EU, Ireland, vaccine thing. Please correct me, add something if I’ve missed it but you have to use the analogy I’m using to help my simple mind-

New pizza restaurant opens-

🍕- Who wants 🍕?

🇬🇧- Yep, please, pepperoni shed loads of it!!

🍕- Ok, 🇪🇺, while I’m doing theirs, want anything?

🇪🇺- Yes let us just..... hold! What we having?

🇫🇷-Pepperoni
🇩🇪- Plain cheese
🇬🇷- Anchovies
🇮🇹- mushroom
🇮🇩- pineapple

🇫🇷🇩🇪🇬🇷🇮🇹- Who the f invited Poland? We are not having pineapple you heathens!!

🍕- Well while you decide we’ll crack on with the UK order 👍.

(Some hours later)

🇪🇺- We too shall have pepperoni!

🍕- Great just dealing with the UK start yours ASAP! All ovens fired and were cracking on.

🇪🇺- We have ordered!! You shall deliver to us NOW!

🍕- Well, you can have a few but we really do have an obligation to get the 🇬🇧 theirs.

🇪🇺- Fine, then we shall block the garden path to the 🇬🇧. No more pizza for them until we get ours!!!!

🇫🇷- Who left the side gate open?! 🇮🇪 ffs why haven’t you shut your gate?

🇮🇪- You said we could keep it open so we can still go and see next door and take them stuff. You said it was a good thing.

🇪🇺- We said that to try and strong arm the UK into not leaving!!

🇮🇪- But........

🇪🇺- (Mutes 🇮🇪) Its ok we have the key just lock it anyway.

Sinn Fein- I focken dare yous to touch our gate!!!!

🇪🇺- We’ve talked to the 🇬🇧 and decided NOT to lock the gate. We shall wait for our 🍕 and see if there is a calm rational way to speed up production.

Well this is brilliant! 😊

PlanDeRaccordement

Mumofsend
*@PlanDeRaccordement I'm very pro remain but you are talking utter nonsense

An emergency is not the EU screwing up their vaccine ordering. An emergency is not taking it out on the UK government when its a business transaction with a company. An emergency is not having made any reasonable attempt to resolve it like adults
.
But a pandemic is an emergency. So we, whole world, is actually in a state of emergency

Given we in the UK have one of the highest death rates if not the highest death rate in the world then it is us that needs the vaccine more than those with lesser problems

We are the emergency

1. There is no such thing as ‘first come first served’ in this type of contract law. All contracts are treated equally irrespective of date of signing.

Oh I see @MatCatLady71, thanks for that.

Ireland is a minor EU nation - by population - I was actually highlighting how IN SPITE OF BEING SMALL they are equal to others as they basically phoned the commission and put a stop to it.

You don't think they deserved the courtesy of being consulted, or at the very least informed, in advance? What with it being their highly senstive border and all that? Instead they should be grateful that the EU backpeddled and muttered about 'mistakes' after the fact?

And pretty much everyone with any sense in Europe knew this was an outrageous move, one for which the EU has accepted zero blame. It's not like they reversed their stupid decision after a single phone call from the Taoiseach.

I’m currently in Canada and we are already having problems getting the vaccines that were pre ordered, so the roll out here is very slow.
I’m sure this EU issue may effect the supply here even more.
The UK are doing really well with their roll out and I’m really pleased they are, as the numbers of deaths and general infection are so high the vaccine is what will get you out of this.
I am surprised though that every new vaccine that gets approved the UK seem to have pre ordered millions of shots, I get that they were quick and signed up early but how many vaccines do you need? Isn’t the population about 66 million so 132 million would be two shots for everyone, but the uk seems to have pre ordered 100s of millions, so much more than you will ever need, so I don’t understand why everyone is getting so upset.
I get that it gives a good opportunity to complain about the EU but at the end of the day, the UK is likely to get the population vaccinated quicker than many other countries.
I agree with the WHO and think this is a worldwide problem and it’s a shame that people are not thinking about that.

Just answering the OP.

I was surprised. It seems a very British thing to do.

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

I think they did give a perfectly reasonable explanation which was that their Belgian plant that was supposed to supply the EU orders wasn't working very well whilst the U.K. plant is because it's had longer to figure things out. There's no mystery or unfair treatment.

Yes that's true.

The UK made the investment at the start and the eu delayed. They also out in far less capital per capita.

Their eu plant isn't ready so they want AZ to divert uk produced vaccines made for uk to them.

I'm a British citizen living in Ireland. People here are thinking that it's to do with the wording of the contracts az have signed. Different factories are producing at different rates. Eu contract did not say to only receive vaccine from whatever country the slow factory is but az are now trying to give eu vaccine from the slow factory. So eu citizens pissed off with az. People bemused by the focus on it being something to do with brexit on sky etc.

itscold we ordered them not knowing if they’d ever work and ploughed in money and expertise to try to get them to work.
A gamble if you like.

Other countries waited. As did the EU.
They can’t now be annoyed that they didn’t gamble.

I am surprised though that every new vaccine that gets approved the UK seem to have pre ordered millions of shots, I get that they were quick and signed up early but how many vaccines do you need? Isn’t the population about 66 million so 132 million would be two shots for everyone, but the uk seems to have pre ordered 100s of millions, so much more than you will ever need, so I don’t understand why everyone is getting so upset.

It's called hedging your bets. A number of vaccines, using different technologies, went into production at the start of the pandemic and it wasn't known which would end up being viable, or when. Britain 'bet' on a broad range of vaccines and placed orders in advance and they've been lucky and/or shrewed thus far in the sense that they've 'bet' on viable candidates. Unlike the EU which, under pressure from Macron, ordered millions of the French Sanofi vaccine which won't be ready for months, if ever.

I agree with the WHO and think this is a worldwide problem and it’s a shame that people are not thinking about that.

What do you want 'people' to do though? People will always prioritise themselves and those close to them. I bet you do too. Britain has made a very large donation to the Covax scheme, but that doesn't mean that they sholdn't also prioritise vaccinating their population.

The contract lawyers will be wrangling over this for some time to come, but my in-house lawyer assured me that:

They are wrong on most of those points, so maybe time for a new job?

@frogswimming

I'm a British citizen living in Ireland. People here are thinking that it's to do with the wording of the contracts az have signed. Different factories are producing at different rates. Eu contract did not say to only receive vaccine from whatever country the slow factory is but az are now trying to give eu vaccine from the slow factory. So eu citizens pissed off with az. People bemused by the focus on it being something to do with brexit on sky etc.

Shouldn't they be pissed off at the lethargic pace at which the EU got around to buying and approving vaccines? AZ was only approved yesterday, a full 5 weeks after Britain.

(EU citizen living in England)

I don’t understand why the press in other countries is giving their respective governments and the EU such an easy ride on this. Or am I missing something? Italy and Spain have had horrific times of it and yet they seem far more accepting of government mistakes? Or Austria, who refused to do anything about Ishgl, which started the whole wretched business off in Europe.

@SkiingIsHeaven

It's my understanding of the whole EU, Ireland, vaccine thing. Please correct me, add something if I’ve missed it but you have to use the analogy I’m using to help my simple mind-

New pizza restaurant opens-

🍕- Who wants 🍕?

🇬🇧- Yep, please, pepperoni shed loads of it!!

🍕- Ok, 🇪🇺, while I’m doing theirs, want anything?

🇪🇺- Yes let us just..... hold! What we having?

🇫🇷-Pepperoni
🇩🇪- Plain cheese
🇬🇷- Anchovies
🇮🇹- mushroom
🇮🇩- pineapple

🇫🇷🇩🇪🇬🇷🇮🇹- Who the f invited Poland? We are not having pineapple you heathens!!

🍕- Well while you decide we’ll crack on with the UK order 👍.

(Some hours later)

🇪🇺- We too shall have pepperoni!

🍕- Great just dealing with the UK start yours ASAP! All ovens fired and were cracking on.

🇪🇺- We have ordered!! You shall deliver to us NOW!

🍕- Well, you can have a few but we really do have an obligation to get the 🇬🇧 theirs.

🇪🇺- Fine, then we shall block the garden path to the 🇬🇧. No more pizza for them until we get ours!!!!

🇫🇷- Who left the side gate open?! 🇮🇪 ffs why haven’t you shut your gate?

🇮🇪- You said we could keep it open so we can still go and see next door and take them stuff. You said it was a good thing.

🇪🇺- We said that to try and strong arm the UK into not leaving!!

🇮🇪- But........

🇪🇺- (Mutes 🇮🇪) Its ok we have the key just lock it anyway.

Sinn Fein- I focken dare yous to touch our gate!!!!

🇪🇺- We’ve talked to the 🇬🇧 and decided NOT to lock the gate. We shall wait for our 🍕 and see if there is a calm rational way to speed up production.

This is so good

@MadCatLady71

The contract lawyers will be wrangling over this for some time to come, but my in-house lawyer assured me that:

1. There is no such thing as ‘first come first served’ in this type of contract law. All contracts are treated equally irrespective of date of signing.

1. When it became evident that AZ could not deliver in a timely way against both contracts, supply should have been divided between the U.K. and the EU. (However that was AZ’s problem, not the UKs.

1. The AZ / EU contract makes it clear that the EU is entitled to vaccines manufactured in the U.K.

1. It also states explicitly that no other contract will impede the supply of vaccine to the EU (bullet E).

No-one knows what the U.K / AZ states - maybe they did promise to prioritise U.K. orders. If so, it’s an even bigger mistake to have denied it to the EU.

I think the EU is justified in being cheesed off with AZ, but it really should have remained an issue of contract negotiations and not escalated into a mini international incident.

AZ have siloed their production. Each contract is produced entirely independently of the other. Therefore when a Belgian factory has an issue (filtering or something), it has nothing to do with what is being made in UK factories. So the UK's contract is not in any way impeding fulfilment of the EU's doses, the impediment is in that Belgian factory. AZ are obliged to use Best Efforts to deliver the vaccine to the EU. In the light of these issues with the Belgian factory AZ should look at using manufacturing capabilities elsewhere, including in the UK and overseas (in the case of non EU28 countries it has to notify the Commission). If said UK/overseas factory is already in use, it can't just commandeer it to make up the shortfall. It would be different if there was a UK/overseas factory with spare capacity.

Again, the key point is that the UK contract is not the impediment to the production of the EU's doses, the impediment is an issue with a factory in Belgium. Had the EU not wasted three months, AZ would have already overcome these issues, just as they did when ramping up the UK's factories.

@Backbee

The contract lawyers will be wrangling over this for some time to come, but my in-house lawyer assured me that:

They are wrong on most of those points, so maybe time for a new job?

Can you explain it please?

MadCat I think your in house lawyer needs to drag out their copy of Chitty.

@IcedPurple yes, I keep saying, it was a really stupid move. They backtracked. As someone who is very pro EU I am disappointed in them, as are millions of EU citizens.

@recluse I agree completely. This is an argument which shouldn't be happening. We all need to cooperate and frankly, all of us in the EU and UK are in a very good position compared to some poorer countries who are fucked by the fact they are poor.

"Despite investment however, surely it is just business practice to first supply people who have ordered first?" I haven't read the contracts that have been published but it isn't as simple as that. When talking about something which hasn't yet been produced it isn't just the date of signature which counts. But I am not an expert.

I am very very sad to read some of the comments on here (and on other threads). As I said above this will blow over but I honestly and very sadly feel the UK is in a bad situation, both with the pandemic and Brexit, and this ridiculous little spat over vaccines isn't helping either side. Co-operation is in everyone's interests.

I grew up in the UK, my family is there, and I take no pleasure in feeling that, on the whole, the UK is in decline. I have been very pleased that the UK government didn't fuck up on vaccines (pretty much the only thing they have got right) , although I have serious doubt as to whether leaving 3 months between each jab is a good idea.

BTW I am also pissed off that the vaccination programme here in the EU has got off to a bad start. I am trying to trust that once it speeds up it will work. I don't feel comfortable with the 3 month gap that friends in the UK are having between jabs. Surely better to start later and do it properly? But I am not a scientist so maybe the gamble has been the right one. I really hope so.

@notevenat20

Isn't it just that Kate Bingham's team prepared brilliantly for the impending vaccines from May 2020 having managed to persuade the UK govt to pay for vaccines which might not work in case at least one of them did. This is quite an expensive thing to do but definitely worth it. I am guessing the EU didn't do the same thing.

This. And that we persuaded Oxford to work with AZ who had manufacturing facilities in the UK rather than another country.