What do EU nationals think of the vaccines mess?

[Frazzled2207]

I’m a committed remainer. But the EU really did mess up last night. More seriously they are not in a good position right now with regards vaccine supply. Lots of anti-Eu posts here right now from committed remainers like me.

Just wondering what EU citizens make of all this and is there any bad feeling towards the UK? Do you think the EU has a right to some of the UK’s vaccine supply? Are people angry at the fact that the UK was able to secure more vaccines more quickly? Or are we coming across as selfish idiots?
Generally curious and am not here to start an argument

The country I’m in is still confident that the whole population will be offered 2 vaccine doses before July, but of course, those first on the list can expect delays which will have life changing consequences for some of them and is causing worry.

There is more disquiet about the restrictions because the case numbers are very low so they’re difficult to justify.

I think the Irish border issue should have been featured more but like I say people don’t understand it, so they would not understand the significance of article 16 and I suppose they want most to sell papers.

Neither Teaisioch or First Minister were at all 'chill' about it!

And the UK isn't stockpiling, there is no stockpile anywhere! It's all being made, sent, OKd and used... lumpy supply and all!

@lunar1

My friend is German, living in Germany. She thought we were mad for the whole Brexit thing. For years she maintained that it was the wrong choice for the us. She has been incredibly vocal over it.

We were chatting on zoom last night and she said the feeling has completely changed over there and they would be better off out of the EU. She said as much as she wants Germany to have the vaccine ASAP it's not down to us to help, the eu screwed up.

For years she maintained that it was the wrong choice for the us. She has been incredibly vocal over it

This made me laugh. Wonder why she was so bothered about it, it’s absolutely nothing to do with her and won’t affect her life.... bizarre

The J&J vaccine is apparently about 66% effective. Much the same as AZ but ours is shit and theirs is great?? It's going to be a good few weeks yet to it being approved anywhere and a month at least before anyone gets it. Looks like it is going to be manufactured in the US so let's hope Biden isn't a fan of export bans.

I would really not be happy at having to wait for J&J but maybe I would care less if I lived in a country with low rates. Here in the middle of a lockdown winter with cases still high and people dying the vaccines are the only good news right now. I feel really happy when I hear of peoples parents and my colleagues getting vaccines. It feels urgent that people in the U.K. get vaccinated and if we didn't have the supplies I would be angry but it is interesting to hear that people in EU countries maybe don't all feel that way.

I would have thought there is an urgency for many countries not to lose another summer tourist season.

@PlanDeRaccordement - if you read the attached you might be a little bit better informed on how/where the AZ is made and contracts etc -

I realise it is completely at odds with your wild interpretations, but facts are sometimes sticky like that...
www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/29/we-had-to-go-it-alone-how-the-uk-got-ahead-in-the-covid-vaccine-race

I am an Eu citizen and resident, and remainer.

I agree the EU cocked up yesterday. It was an own goal, ill thought through, a knee jerk reaction that they should be ashamed of. However they backed down very quickly when one minor country of the 27, Ireland, told them to. That shows reason and the ability to say, OK, we went too far. Don't see that much in Westminister.

However I think they have been royally screwed by AZ so are right to be upset.

I also think the vaccination programme is too slow in the EU but, at least in EU countries it is slow but following the guidelines for the 3 week gap between jabs, which is safer than the 3 months going on in the UK.

However, the anti EU rhetoric being whipped up in the UK press is appalling, and very much to distract from the devastating way the UK has in general handled the pandemic. Some of the comments show a staggering lack of knowledge of contract law and a simplistic bias of UK vs the funny foreigners across the Channel.

Anyone who is using the misjudged attitude of the EU this past week as an argument for Brexit or an exit of their own country from the EU is not thinking it through.

Personally I am happier in a flawed but on the whole democratic EU than a corrupt and greedy UK run by the most inept government in recent generations.

I’m in France and as far as I can tell the only people talking about it are the expat Brits. It’s not a massive media story the way it is the U.K. Most people here (I’m on the Med - it could well be different in Paris) lost interest in Brexit and goings-on in the U.K. a long time ago.

It’s obvious from the contract that Astra Zeneca over-promised and can’t deliver. And the way they have dealt with it has benefited the U.K. and disadvantaged the EU. That said, I do think the Commission has handled the aftermath badly - the U.K. is contractually entitled to all the doses it has received, technically it’s not their problem that AZ has screwed the EU (even if the ethics, if not the legality, are up for debate).

I do think it is looking increasingly unlikely that the EU and U.K. are going to be ‘special friends’ in the way that was bandied around during Brexit negotiations - but I’m not sure that was ever likely anyway.

@Haffiana

They wanted our vaccines that are made here...

They wanted our vaccines made in the UK..

They are not 'our' vaccines. This isn't a football team ffs.

The vaccines made by Astrazenica are manufactured at sites in Europe and at sites in the UK (and also India). People or countries that purchase those vaccines are the 'owners' of the vaccines WHEREVER they happen to be manufactured. Not 'us' or 'them' or all that jingoistic shit. They are not YOUR vaccines just because they are made in the UK.

Pfizer vaccines, some of which are indeed YOUR vaccines because the UK purchased them for YOU, are made in Europe, for example.

The argument is between the EU who paid for the development, production and purchase of the AstraZenica vaccine, and AstraZenica who have not delivered what was ordered and paid for.

All of the AZ vaccines currently being bottled were purchased by the UK. Only once the UK order has been fulfilled will UK factories be able to start fulfilling orders to other nations.

@MesmerisingMinerva

I am an Eu citizen and resident, and remainer.

I agree the EU cocked up yesterday. It was an own goal, ill thought through, a knee jerk reaction that they should be ashamed of. However they backed down very quickly when one minor country of the 27, Ireland, told them to. That shows reason and the ability to say, OK, we went too far. Don't see that much in Westminister.

However I think they have been royally screwed by AZ so are right to be upset.

I also think the vaccination programme is too slow in the EU but, at least in EU countries it is slow but following the guidelines for the 3 week gap between jabs, which is safer than the 3 months going on in the UK.

However, the anti EU rhetoric being whipped up in the UK press is appalling, and very much to distract from the devastating way the UK has in general handled the pandemic. Some of the comments show a staggering lack of knowledge of contract law and a simplistic bias of UK vs the funny foreigners across the Channel.

Anyone who is using the misjudged attitude of the EU this past week as an argument for Brexit or an exit of their own country from the EU is not thinking it through.

Personally I am happier in a flawed but on the whole democratic EU than a corrupt and greedy UK run by the most inept government in recent generations.

How have the EU been screwed by AZ @MesmerisingMinerva? Genuinely asking.

@MesmerisingMinerva

I am an Eu citizen and resident, and remainer.

I agree the EU cocked up yesterday. It was an own goal, ill thought through, a knee jerk reaction that they should be ashamed of. However they backed down very quickly when one minor country of the 27, Ireland, told them to. That shows reason and the ability to say, OK, we went too far. Don't see that much in Westminister.

However I think they have been royally screwed by AZ so are right to be upset.

I also think the vaccination programme is too slow in the EU but, at least in EU countries it is slow but following the guidelines for the 3 week gap between jabs, which is safer than the 3 months going on in the UK.

However, the anti EU rhetoric being whipped up in the UK press is appalling, and very much to distract from the devastating way the UK has in general handled the pandemic. Some of the comments show a staggering lack of knowledge of contract law and a simplistic bias of UK vs the funny foreigners across the Channel.

Anyone who is using the misjudged attitude of the EU this past week as an argument for Brexit or an exit of their own country from the EU is not thinking it through.

Personally I am happier in a flawed but on the whole democratic EU than a corrupt and greedy UK run by the most inept government in recent generations.

Personally I am happier in a flawed but on the whole democratic EU than a corrupt and greedy UK run by the most inept government in recent generations

bit rich

@TableFlowerss your answer indicates that we won't ever agree on the subject. The Tory government has shown evidence of corruption and ineptitude countless times over the last 12 months. I don't think me writing you a long list will persuade you though, so I won't. The EU is democratic - anyone who argues against that is coming from a place of bias.

@recluse they invested massively in AZ development of the vaccine, as well as placing a large order. AZ over promised and won't explain why they can't now provide what they promised. However they are managing to fulfill the order received by the UK. I don't understand why people don't get why the EU feels like it has been badly treated. Again, their reaction was OTT, but it was withdrawn within hours.

[quote ohfourfoxache]@OuiOuiKitty I hope it doesn’t lead to a dissolution, but there is a tendency I think in the UK press to suggest that, for example, Italy is increasingly dissatisfied with the EU and could look towards leaving. Unfortunately it’s difficult to know what’s true and what isn’t - hence my post! [/quote]
A poster on another thread who is resident in Italy said that the Italians had been suffering from a lack of European solidarity ever since the Germans blocked PPE exports and the French came up with "Coronapizza". Add this to resentment which has been simmering up since the Eurozone crisis.

As for attitudes held by citizens of other EU nations, wasn't it Macron who once said that the French were careful never to hold a referendum on leaving the EU because they might get an answer.

Screwed is a bit of a strong word.
They overpromised and could not deliver both orders. They fulfilled the U.K. one because we signed first, started production first and approved it first. That happens with all kinds of goods all the time and was a fairly likely scenario given the time pressures and uncertainties.

Should the EU not be offering support/ funding to the Belgian factory to sort the production issues? Would that not be more productive than empty threats about export bans.

And the gap between jabs us still being researched... some early evidence that a longer gap is beneficial.

And AZ didn't screw anyone... it's a bit entirely unexpected happening when gearing up any manufacturing.... when the same happened here nobody started threatening legal actions and embargoes!

@tableflowerss
I think the word "democracy" must be lost in translation for Minerva - she might need a new phrase book, seems to have the 1984 edition by Orwell - full of doublespeak.

I was told yesterday by someone that the UK should be refusing the vaccine to the resident EU nationals as a retaliation to the EU hostility. Which, in the eyes of this person, includes me (I am non-EU, but their geography skills are not top notch, I am still a foreigner). But "nothing personal, just an opinion".

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@Horizons83
Yes the final action late yesterday re Article 16 is Brexit related, but start back at the beginning:

Apparently that was a misunderstanding on part of U.K. EU has come out and said they weren’t talking about article 16 regarding NI and customs.

Agree with all intervening.

So they immediately start demanding extra supply from another country (note, no demands to get that supply from eg India).

No, the supply is from EU manufacturing plants working on U.K. orders. No demand for supply from another country outside the EU.

At what point in any of the above is the U.K. at fault?
Fault is not word I would use. Rather the situation is caused by Brexit having happened. If the U.K. were still in the EU, then the EU invoking the requirement that all vaccines made in the EU should go to EU citizens first, then U.K. would not miss out. But since Brexit happened, your orders to EU manufacturers could be legally bumped by EU orders.

Whether that is ethical is another matter entirely....[/quote]
I've struggled to grasp some of this is in the last and made a real effort to understand.

But even I know you are completely getting this arse over tit backwards.

Luckily - I think it's deliberate and some weird attempt to question Brexit.

At least I hope it is 🤣

I think they did give a perfectly reasonable explanation which was that their Belgian plant that was supposed to supply the EU orders wasn't working very well whilst the U.K. plant is because it's had longer to figure things out. There's no mystery or unfair treatment.

@MesmerisingMinerva

‘Democratic’? Everyone knows the EU is basically run by France and Germany, which is why so many decisions are made to their benefit and the detriment of others. Eg Macron persuading the EU to champion the French vaccine, which is unlikely to be successful. You even acknowledge this lack of equality yourself when you state that Ireland is ‘one of the minor’ European members...

You can make accusations of ‘corruption’ and ‘greed’ against the U.K. all you like. But the fact is the political institution of the EU has come out of this looking very silly and like school yard bullies.

[quote MesmerisingMinerva]@TableFlowerss your answer indicates that we won't ever agree on the subject. The Tory government has shown evidence of corruption and ineptitude countless times over the last 12 months. I don't think me writing you a long list will persuade you though, so I won't. The EU is democratic - anyone who argues against that is coming from a place of bias.

@recluse they invested massively in AZ development of the vaccine, as well as placing a large order. AZ over promised and won't explain why they can't now provide what they promised. However they are managing to fulfill the order received by the UK. I don't understand why people don't get why the EU feels like it has been badly treated. Again, their reaction was OTT, but it was withdrawn within hours.[/quote]
Yeah - because democracy is throwing your toys out of the pram (because of your own misjudgment by not placing orders early enough) and threatening the stability of the Good Friday agreement that caused a war for years....

PMSL that ROI were ‘chill’ about threats to the border.

[quote Floppywin]@tableflowerss
I think the word "democracy" must be lost in translation for Minerva - she might need a new phrase book, seems to have the 1984 edition by Orwell - full of doublespeak.[/quote]
You are 100% right!!! M

I didn’t know whether to laugh at the ignorance.... or cry....

@CuriousaboutSamphire

That just means that EU press are not covering what the various EU people are saying. Probably as part of the not explaining clearly how this started in the first place.

So nothing much about the paucity of cash input to Covex

Nothing much about the comparative amounts given to potential developers

Nothing much about the caviling about the cost of each vaccine, with a not for profit development when each Euro not paid means less for poorer countries

Nothing much about the 3 month delay

Nothing much about the direct and indirect threats from German ministers and EU representatives... now retracted or explained away

Nothing much about the accusations that AZ were lying about the cause of the temporary slow down if manufacturing

Nothing much about the same situation we and the US etc experienced in December, or our government reaction to it.

The UK government is not the only one that asks journalists to downplay some stories and UK journalists are not the only ones to turn on/off the nationalistic jingoism as they seem appropriate.

Maybe, as some here have been saying (myself included) you could accept that the EU error is historical but the reaction to the outcome is far too aggressive and self protective. It is simply not proportional and is clearly illogical in some aspects.

And I'm also assuming they didn't announce to their member states they published their contract with AZ which wasn't redacted properly and sensitive information was published worldwide - which actually makes them in breach on contract now anyway

@MesmerisingMinerva

To add, a democracy allows the voices of all to be heard - do you honestly think the voices of all the poor EU countries are heard in the same way as the richer ones?...... I don’t need you to answer because there is only one answer and that is absolutely not!!