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What do EU nationals think of the vaccines mess?

999 replies

Frazzled2207 · 30/01/2021 10:10

I’m a committed remainer. But the EU really did mess up last night. More seriously they are not in a good position right now with regards vaccine supply. Lots of anti-Eu posts here right now from committed remainers like me.

Just wondering what EU citizens make of all this and is there any bad feeling towards the UK? Do you think the EU has a right to some of the UK’s vaccine supply? Are people angry at the fact that the UK was able to secure more vaccines more quickly? Or are we coming across as selfish idiots?
Generally curious and am not here to start an argument

OP posts:
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MushMonster · 30/01/2021 15:29

I think this is not going to be an issue only between AZ, the EU, and now the UK being thrown in.
US is activating protocols to ensure vaccines supplies for US. UK has this type on contract with AZ. EU will follow, if needed.
This is our health they are playing with (all of us), so I am hoping they can actually manage to share, according to the number of cases and situation in each country. And that they get escalating production, instead of fighting.
India is producing (or at least will be able, it is a while back that I read it) AZ in massive numbers.
More vaccines have been approved. So we shall hace more doses in production.
They need to get more facilities up and running. Some vaccines programs have failed, so the installations should be getting ready to produce the type of vaccines that have succeeded.
We should be delaying other vaccines manufacturing if we have stock enough and a few months delay will not be a massive risk on the normal schedules vaccines, and using the factories for covid vaccines. And, also, they have to get speeding the packaging and quality controls up.
There is only one way out of this, and it is all together.
I am sure this does not agree with politics at all, togetherness foes not go down well with "I am the best" propaganda.

Longtalljosie · 30/01/2021 15:31

For an insight into what some of them think have a listen to the Newscast episode “jabsolute scenes” - they have a CDU guy on and honestly I can’t get the interview out of my head. Laura K bowls him a pretty clear question taking in all the above points in this thread and he starts ranting about Brexit, our death rate, the new strain, saying we’re a total mess and that is why we are behaving badly. And pressed on what AZ say? He “doesn’t believe” them. It was extraordinary. I can only assume he was expecting some sort of a fireside chat and couldn’t handle an actual question. I also took from it that the point about the U.K. / AZ agreement being much earlier was - well, either he didn’t know or he hadn’t thought much about it

EscapedfromGN · 30/01/2021 15:32

@PlanDeRaccordement

I’m a supporter of EU. This mess was caused by Brexit. British remainers did in fact warn the U.K. that the EU can close borders to imports and exports in times of emergency. They were laughed at and their warnings called Project Fear. With lots of “they (the EU) need our British exports more than we need theirs”

Of course, no one thought the exports would be vaccines from EU to U.K. during a pandemic. But as you can easily see, the U.K. needs this export. So this is a bed of thorns made by Brexit and it was fair to remind the UK of this. So, now you are reminded of the mistake of Brexit, it is ok by me to send some of our vaccines to you as a humanitarian gesture. Like we do aid to other countries as well.

You do understand that it's the EU that have cocked up massively re the vaccine?

The UK have done nothing illegal or immoral in buying the vaccine early and distributing it to the vulnerable groups.

EU would not be sending any vaccine has a humanitarian gesture. They have been ordered in advance and I presume paid for. How is the UK at fault?

PlanDeRaccordement · 30/01/2021 15:33

@Horizons83
Yes the final action late yesterday re Article 16 is Brexit related, but start back at the beginning:

Apparently that was a misunderstanding on part of U.K. EU has come out and said they weren’t talking about article 16 regarding NI and customs.

Agree with all intervening.

So they immediately start demanding extra supply from another country (note, no demands to get that supply from eg India).

No, the supply is from EU manufacturing plants working on U.K. orders. No demand for supply from another country outside the EU.

At what point in any of the above is the U.K. at fault?
Fault is not word I would use. Rather the situation is caused by Brexit having happened. If the U.K. were still in the EU, then the EU invoking the requirement that all vaccines made in the EU should go to EU citizens first, then U.K. would not miss out. But since Brexit happened, your orders to EU manufacturers could be legally bumped by EU orders.

Whether that is ethical is another matter entirely....

noblegiraffe · 30/01/2021 15:33

Because the issue is regarding AZ vaccines produced by EU manufacturers in EU countries. Not the ones produced in U.K.

Well I'm now very confused because from what I understood, the EU wanted some of the doses from the UK factories to be diverted to the EU because the EU was having issues with their Belgian plant.

And Astra Zeneca said no because the UK got their order in first and they have a duty to fulfil it, whereas the EU order is down the priority list due to getting their order in three months later on a best efforts basis.

What do you think is happening? Is it being reported differently abroad?

FatCatThinCat · 30/01/2021 15:33

I'm in Sweden where we're currently vaccinating using the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. No idea how they were procured. Our vaccination schedule is to have all high risk groups vaccinatex by March and the rest of the population vaccinated by June. This is based on how many vaccines we know we're getting and everything is going to plan. There's zero interest in the EU-AstraZeneca-UK debarcle. It barely got a mention in the news here.

CovoidOfAllHumanity · 30/01/2021 15:35

That's what I understood too NobleGirafge

PlanDeRaccordement · 30/01/2021 15:37

@EscapedfromGN
You do understand that it's the EU that have cocked up massively re the vaccine?. Wouldn’t say “cocked up” but rather the normal delays that occur when you have 27 countries coordinating. It’s a lot more bureaucracy than 1 country acting alone.

The UK have done nothing illegal or immoral in buying the vaccine early and distributing it to the vulnerable groups. Yes, agree 100%

EU would not be sending any vaccine has a humanitarian gesture. They have been ordered in advance and I presume paid for. How is the UK at fault?. The humanitarian gesture & ethically correct thing would be in allowing U.K. equal priority with EU orders from EU vaccine manufacturing factories, when legally don’t have to. Can do all EU orders first, bumping U.K. down in priority. As stated to another poster, not a question of fault so much as cause. Brexit happening means that U.K. is not in EU now and so was warned that means no longer have priority to EU the same as EU members.

Motorina · 30/01/2021 15:41

I think for the EU to start forcing independant firms to breach contracts have signed with non-EU counties by bumping them on the grounds that 'your factory is in the EU and we can' would significantly undermine the reputation of the EU on the world stage, and the willingness of non-EU manufacturing to continue within the Bloc.

I'm not saying they can't do it. They could send in tanks and seize vaccine if they wanted to. But the reputational consequences are likely to be significant.

UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme · 30/01/2021 15:43

I think the general understanding in Bavaria, where I live, is that the AZ vaccination is less effective than two doses of the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines. There is criticism of the German goverment and the EU for being slow, but no real interst in the AZ vaccination - people want the Pfizer one.

CovoidOfAllHumanity · 30/01/2021 15:43

But the vast majority of the AZ production is in the U.K.

Pfizer have a site in Belgium and one in the US

So realistically the EU could only stop Pfizer from exporting vaccines to the U.K. as AZ are already making our own in the U.K.

That would be a nuclear and very stupid move to stop a US company from exporting products as they could just move all their production to the US.

This export ban was a very silly threat that can never actually be enacted.

HelloMissus · 30/01/2021 15:44

I think the EU did cock up actually.
Not least because it decided to initially split its procurement between Pfizer and Sanofi.
The French pressed very hard for that.

UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme · 30/01/2021 15:44

www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/corona-impfung-daten-100.html

notimagain · 30/01/2021 15:44

@ohfourfoxache

The EU’s poor management has given leavers in EU member states a huge gift...WTF is going to happen if this leads to the entire bloc dissolving??
TBH I doubt the issue is on most people's radars....

French news today is almost entirely about the latest domestic Covid restrictions and the British variant Wink weather we're having....

Grumbles about (relatively) slow vaccination rate will continue I'm sure (it was just over 100k a day last week), with the domestic government, not "Brussels", probably rightly continuing to get it in the neck for relying on Sanofi......

Haven't heard anyone manning the barricades calling for an end to the EU, but would hope somewhere in EU HQ lessons about the dangers of over centralisation of some processes have been learnt.

CovoidOfAllHumanity · 30/01/2021 15:46

Anyone from Spain or Italy who can say how it's reported there? I understood people were very unhappy and vaccination centres being closed.

PlanDeRaccordement · 30/01/2021 15:49

@noblegiraffe
I am thinking maybe things are being reported differently in U.K. to here.
So, to start on 25 Jan, per Politico.eu, AZ said to EU they would not deliver their orders of vaccines required by the contract:

“The European Commission announced a new scheme today to require companies to register any exports of coronavirus vaccines — a drastic step in response to fears that manufacturers will not live up to their commitments. "We want clarity on transactions and full transparency concerning the export of vaccines from the EU," Health Commissioner Stella Kyriakides announced, adding that exports for humanitarian reasons will be exempt. EU countries must sign off on the proposed scheme, which wouldn't ban such exports but make companies alert the EU “whenever they want to export to third countries.” The announcement comes after news that AstraZeneca wouldn't fulfill the EU's full order for coronavirus vaccines in the first quarter — a move that's "not acceptable" to the EU, Kyriakides said. The company, which partnered with Oxford University to develop the jab, has cited manufacturing issues but has failed to explain what those are. Kyriakides' statement implied the British-Swedish company has sold those doses elsewhere. "The EU wants to know exactly which doses have been produced [and] where by AstraZeneca so far, and if, or to whom they have been delivered," she said.

Then 28 Jan, politico.eu reported:
“Brussels has decided to impose a mechanism on Friday under which EU countries will be able to block vaccine exports, two EU officials said Thursday. In past days, EU officials have debated whether the plan would involve hard-hitting border stoppages or merely a transparency system. The tougher version finally prevailed after relations with Anglo-Swedish pharmaceutical giant AstraZeneca degenerated. Under the European Commission's plan, the EU will instruct its customs authorities to block vaccine exports unless they have a prior authorization. The scheme will need to be signed off by experts from the 27 member countries, at a session also expected on Friday. EU countries would only grant such authorizations after making sure vaccine makers have delivered the doses of vaccines promised in their “advanced purchasing agreements” with the EU. Since both Pfizer/BioNTech and Astra Zeneca are below their delivery targets, this would permit the EU to block exports up to the level of weekly delivery targets. This is a significant hardening of policy. Earlier in the week, EU trade chief Valdis Dombrovskis sought to play down the idea of an export ban and insisted the measure would largely center on ensuring more transparency about production and shipments of drugs. One EU official was asked about whether the scheme meant countries such as Canada, which are getting their supplies from Europe because the U.S. has imposed similar restrictions, would lose out, but he said this was the responsibility of vaccine makers. “It’s up to the companies themselves to ensure they can satisfy demand,” the official said. For the EU, the new export control “is a question of ensuring that the money that we spent produces vaccines for our citizens.” Two officials said the EU would exempt shipments for poor countries and the international COVAX effort from that authorization requirement.”

PlanDeRaccordement · 30/01/2021 15:50

@CovoidOfAllHumanity
So realistically the EU could only stop Pfizer from exporting vaccines to the U.K. as AZ are already making our own in the U.K.

Yes, that is really all the export ban decision would have affected. But it all started with dispute over AZ not meeting their deliveries per the EU contract.

CovoidOfAllHumanity · 30/01/2021 15:51

It is true that the Pfizer vaccine is probably 'better' but that barely matters.

What matters is achieving population coverage. If you can vaccinate a tiny amount of people with a very effective vaccine or a lot with a less effective vaccine you will save more lives by vaccinating a lot of people with the less effective vaccine.

AZ has advantages there because it is so much easier to handle and distribute. The -70 storage is a big issue with the Pfizer vaccine.

It seems EU leaders do care about not getting enough AZ vaccines as they have made all this fuss about it. If they had enough of the others presumably they'd not be worried but they appear to be.

PlanDeRaccordement · 30/01/2021 15:54

@Motorina

I think for the EU to start forcing independant firms to breach contracts have signed with non-EU counties by bumping them on the grounds that 'your factory is in the EU and we can' would significantly undermine the reputation of the EU on the world stage, and the willingness of non-EU manufacturing to continue within the Bloc.

I'm not saying they can't do it. They could send in tanks and seize vaccine if they wanted to. But the reputational consequences are likely to be significant.

Well, from here it’s seen as a tit for tat action. AZ failed to deliver vaccines from U.K. to EU per the EU contract and could not tell the EU a good reason why.

So EU Commission suspected AZ of diverting the EU vaccines to stay in U.K.

So in response, EU decided to ban exports of vaccines made in EU outside the EU, except for humanitarian exceptions. This then affects U.K. orders of Pfizer vaccines made in Belgium.

Covidcorvid · 30/01/2021 15:55

They’re not your UK vaccines until they’ve been delivered to the U.K.
They're Astra Zeneca vaccines and the EU has authority to direct AZ to deliver on EU contracts before U.K. contracts regardless of who ordered first.

Really? Who made the EU God? Why can the EU say that, on what authority? If they can say it why can’t the U.K.? Or Russia or USA or Uganda? Is it just the EU that’s special? Genuinely curious...maybe there is some international law I’m unaware of which says the EU gets first dibs on anything it wants? 🤷‍♀️

cerisecherries · 30/01/2021 15:56

The only way in which the UK was in the news here today was about your variant and whether it was reaching us. Nothing to do with vaccines. We just aren't all that interested in the UK unless it really affects us. I don't think that many people really care about what is going on in the UK at the moment.

CovoidOfAllHumanity · 30/01/2021 15:59

It is not disputed that AZ have stated they will not meet their 1st quarter quota of EU vaccines but it isn't because they have sold them to someone else instead as the EU have implied it's because the Belgian production isn't working very well.

Surely that's just a thing that can happen? Disappointing but not a cause of opprobrium surely? Maybe they over promised but that's all they are guilty of. They aren't even making a profit. It's all at cost price so they have no incentive to sell them to a higher bidder. They promised not to do that.

Why it has resulted in this big row or why it has anything to do with the U.K. and far less the Irish border is quite hard to fathom.

EscapedfromGN · 30/01/2021 16:05

PlanDeRaccordement

EU would not be sending any vaccine has a humanitarian gesture. They have been ordered in advance and I presume paid for. How is the UK at fault?.

The humanitarian gesture & ethically correct thing would be in allowing U.K. equal priority with EU orders from EU vaccine manufacturing factories, when legally don’t have to. Can do all EU orders first, bumping U.K. down in priority. As stated to another poster, not a question of fault so much as cause. Brexit happening means that U.K. is not in EU now and so was warned that means no longer have priority to EU the same as EU members.

So if something is made in an EU factory the EU always has a right to jump the queue and take it. Even when a non EU country ordered and paid for that product first?

CovoidOfAllHumanity · 30/01/2021 16:06

The AZ plan was to fulfil the U.K. orders from the U.K. site which is working fine and the EU orders from the Belgian site which is not.

The company could choose to divert U.K. production to fulfil the EU order but it has chosen not to because it would then fail to fulfil both orders. It's just a business decision. They aren't in breach of their EU contract because it only required 'best efforts' which they contend they have made.

To then involve Pfizer and threaten to block U.K. (and Canada and presumably others) supplies and fire up the whole Irish border dispute is a crazy escalation for a vaccine that apparently Europeans think is a bit shit and don't even want anyway.
Huge own goal.

OuiOuiKitty · 30/01/2021 16:06

Why it has resulted in this big row or why it has anything to do with the U.K. and far less the Irish border is quite hard to fathom.

From this thread it would appear that people in the UK think it is a big row but in the EU we don't really care about the UK and it barely features. If you listen to the people here that are living in the EU they are saying we are all fairly chill about the whole thing. The border thing was rolled back on in a couple of hours after Ireland said well actually that won't work.

I don't know why people on the ground in the UK are acting so wound up about the whole thing, like you said it's nothing to with the UK so why all the frothing? It's weird and seems out of proportion to what happening in EU counties right now.

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