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Re AZ vaccine. Maybe I'm thick. Could someone explain why it's the UKs fault?

124 replies

VettiyaIruken · 30/01/2021 09:01

Me and my neighbour both want a certain item from Amazon. I buy 2 because I want and need 2. A few weeks later my neighbour buys one.

Mine arrives. My neighbour gets an email from Amazon saying their package is delayed. My neighbour comes to me, banging on my door, yelling at me that Amazon haven't delivered and demanding that I give her mine or at least 1 of mine. I say no, I ordered them, I'm using them. She needs to take it up with Amazon. My neighbour screams at me that I'm a cunt and goes round the entire village yelling about what a twat I am.

OP posts:
Doomsdayiscoming · 30/01/2021 11:16

@Justthebeerlighttoguide

It is absolutely nothing to do with us except someone in the bowels of the EU Poe faced politicians are loosing their heads at their own never ending ineptitude and screaming like toddlers - like Trump, its because of he UK.....those baddies...

Like many posters on here they are desperately shoe horning it into being our fault.

I’m not saying it’s anyone’s fault.

It’s Pascal’s fault. He overstated what could be achieved, or failed to organise his company well enough. To distract from this, he has pitted two clients against each other.

He is a classic CEO. Hearing the largest number and going with it, rather than the average, or the more reasonable/likely.

AuntyClementine · 30/01/2021 11:18

I have 38 potatoes and my neighbour has 14. He also has a unicycle and an egg timer. I order a 6ft ladder from B&Q and he wants to clean his upstairs windows. I want boiled eggs with soldiers. Why shouldn’t he ask to borrow my lawnmower?

whatisthislifesofullofcare · 30/01/2021 11:22

The German MEP response was distasteful, particularly due to timing - Holocaust Day.

TheSockMonster · 30/01/2021 11:23

The birds are the young and healthy. I’d happily give my vaccine up for an elderly Italian.

@Doomsdayiscoming

I don’t understand your comment (genuinely!)

The feeding the birds comment was someone else’s. I was pointing out it was not a proper analogy.

I think any of us would give our vaccines to someone more in need. However, the question I asked was would you give your elderly parents’ vaccine to someone of lower risk. An elderly person in the UK is currently at higher risk than an elderly person in most of the EU due to our levels of infection, our prevalent strain and our overwhelmed health services.

Dinnafashyersel · 30/01/2021 11:24

*The birds are the young and healthy.

I’d happily give my vaccine up for an elderly Italian.*

Come back to this in 3 months when the UK has indeed vaccinated all its frail and vulnerable with 2 shots. Odd to suggest the UK with a 1/10 of the EU population would have enough surplus to make a meaningful dent in their issue atm. (I have a family of 5 I tend not to assume my upstairs neighbour who lives on her own has spare loaves kicking about for me but I could generally rustle up an extra portion for her if she needed me to).

In 3 months time the short term delays will all be forgotten. Giving negative reviews to niche suppliers and badmouthing their loyal customer base tends to have longer lasting consequences.

NewYearNewTwatName · 30/01/2021 11:26

Today 09:59 Thepilotlightsgoneout
I have a question! If there was no Brexit and we were still in the EU, would we have been able to strike our own deals the vaccine companies as we had or would we have HAD to be part of any EU deals?
Anyone know?

This is a a very good article, worth the read as it's a bit of a timeline from January 2020 to now on what decisions were made by who and when regards the Uk and EU.

Also shows how much money was put in to the supporting the pharmas in up scaling.

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/29/we-had-to-go-it-alone-how-the-uk-got-ahead-in-the-covid-vaccine-race

part quotes

-------
AstraZeneca says the headstart it had was vital

The vaccine brewing process – as it described by the company – takes three months and the yield it produces is uncertain. There were yield shortfalls in the UK, but as Soriot said in an interview earlier this week, “we have had an extra three months to fix all the glitches we experienced” before the vaccine was approved at the end of December

With Brexit looming, the UK drew huge criticism for declining to join EU schemes to purchase PPE and ventilators. There was also growing pressure to join a joint EU procurement plan for vaccines, and to put aside the Brexit rhetoric

But Brussels’ demands were eye-watering: the UK, unlike EU member states, would not be able to take part in the governance of the scheme, including the steering group or the negotiating team

Britain would have no say in what vaccines to procure, at what price or in what quantity, and for what delivery schedule. There would be no side-deals possible

British officials were not convinced. “We had to go it alone,” said a UK source. “There was nothing there for us.” By the time a special UK vaccine taskforce was created in April, the seeds of a successful strategy had been sown

-------

“It is Europe’s moment”, Von der Leyen tweeted in mid-December as she announced that between 27 and 29 December, people across the EU’s 27 member states would be vaccinated. “We protect our citizens together,” she said. But her confidence was misplaced. There were hidden frailties

Rasmus Hansen, the chief executive of Airfinity, a data analytics company working in the life sciences sector, said the EU had failed to invest as it should have in scaling-up production plants

The EU had spent just €1.78bn in “risk money”, cash handed to pharmaceutical companies without any guarantee of a return, compared to €1.9bn by the UK and €9bn by the US, he said. There were consequences

The first hit to the EU strategy was the announcement by Pfizer/BioNTech, one of only two vaccine producers authorised for use in the EU at this stage – along with Moderna, with whom only a smaller order has been made – that they needed to slow down production in order to upgrade a facility in Belgium and boost output in late February

This did not unduly upset officials initially. They had AstraZeneca, and its total of 400m doses, coming down the line. “I am not sure why this debate is there because the numbers are there, the production is ramping up,” Sandra Gallina, the commission’s chief negotiator, told MEPs on 12 January
EU's vaccine supply issues mean light at end of tunnel that much further away

But then the hammer blow: last Friday, AstraZeneca, not yet approved by the EMA but expected to get the green light, said it would now be able to deliver only 25% of the intended 100m doses due in the first quarter of this year. A filtering problem at its plant in Seneffe, south of Brussels, had left the company with a lower yield than expected
-----------

You would have thought given the size of the EU 27 and the amount of production needed, that their 'Risk money' would have been more on a parr with the US $9billion

Doomsdayiscoming · 30/01/2021 11:27

@TheSockMonster

The birds are the young and healthy. I’d happily give my vaccine up for an elderly Italian.

@Doomsdayiscoming

I don’t understand your comment (genuinely!)

The feeding the birds comment was someone else’s. I was pointing out it was not a proper analogy.

I think any of us would give our vaccines to someone more in need. However, the question I asked was would you give your elderly parents’ vaccine to someone of lower risk. An elderly person in the UK is currently at higher risk than an elderly person in most of the EU due to our levels of infection, our prevalent strain and our overwhelmed health services.

Have you seen Portugal’s current situation? Equivalent to us having 1500-2000 die per day, and their cases are equivalent to us having 90,000-100,000.

I am not saying I would give up vaccines for the elderly or vulnerable, but once you’ve reached the young and healthy then you need to consider what is morally right, not economically.

This will all be a distant memory when Pfizer through Sanofi and Novartis are pumping out vaccine like no-ones business.

BigFatLiar · 30/01/2021 11:28

I don't see what the problem is for the EU as several countries have come out saying its not a good vaccine as it doesn't work well. Surely then they can give the supply they do get to the countries that are happy to have it.

itsgettingweird · 30/01/2021 11:28

Yes Marcia I vaguely remember the opt in or out of EU vaccine procurement. Iirc when it happened the EU said we were silly and just point proving and it was during the brexit final talks.

That makes more sense about why they angry.

whatisthislifesofullofcare · 30/01/2021 11:29

@guinan
I understand that the EU had not paid over monies at the point where the dispute was raised. That would mean their ‘contract war’ was moot and might explain the displacement response (‘pissed off at myself but kick the dog instead’).

TheSockMonster · 30/01/2021 11:32

i am not saying I would give up vaccines for the elderly or vulnerable

But you are. That’s the stage we are at now.

It would be an entirely different debate if we were at a different stage in the vaccination process.

The EU aren’t asking for AZ to reroute vaccines after we’ve vaccinated our vulnerable. They are asking for them over the next 8 weeks.

Deliaskis · 30/01/2021 11:49

@17thEarlOfOxford

Please consider using alternative online shopping services. Amazon pays very little UK tax and is often more expensive and lower quality than alternatives.
Arf at this. There is no tax liability for either party for using Amazon services in a metaphor as far as I'm aware?
Guinan · 30/01/2021 11:55

[quote TheSockMonster]@Guinan

I think (but may be wrong!) that only the first part of the drug was produced in the Netherlands and Germany and that it’s the other part that is causing production delays. I also thought that UK invested heavily months before the EU did and that any divert vaccines were due to the drug (still!) not being approved in the EU.

This is a good interview with the CEO of AZ that was posted on another thread.

I went into this assuming the UK were being grabby, but I don’t think we are the bad guys here.[/quote]
@TheSockMonster
I've read that interview before. It says " You have two steps in the production of a vaccine: one is ... the vaccine itself. We call it a drug substance, the vaccine. Then ... we put the vaccine into vials and we call that the drug product, the final product. For Europe the drugs substance is essentially produced in two plants, one in the Netherlands, one in Belgium. The drug product is actually produced in Italy and Germany. "
So if the initial deliveries came from the Netherlands and Germany as stated here www.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-britain-astrazenec-idUKKBN28I1NH, that would mean that the entire production process was in the EU, wasn't it?

As for only diverting vaccines while they weren't approved in the EU: I said above that I don't agree with stockpiling for a later approval but as far as I understood, that was implied by the contract between AZ and the EU. If AZ sold to other buyers ready to use it, I think that's fair enough - but then they should now do their best to make it up out of the running production and cannot just say "oh, we sold the product you paid for elsewhere, back luck for you".

SophieB100 · 30/01/2021 12:06

I read the OP several times thinking WTF has Amazon got to do with vaccine delivery. It wasn't until I read d the responses I realised it was an an analogy. I think I need a cup of coffee!

^
Thank god it wasn't just me! I was thinking, what the hell has the title of the thread got to do with Amazon and the CF neighbour! Penny dropped after I read a dozen or so posts! Grin

Guinan · 30/01/2021 12:07

@whatisthislifesofullofcare
I understand that the EU had not paid over monies at the point where the dispute was raised.

It's been widely reported that the EU made a downpayment of more than 300 million in August, so not sure how you came to this conclusion?

aloetia · 30/01/2021 12:11

The Eu were always bullies especially to my home country but I guess with Brexit and this vaccine fuck up from their own end between AZ just shows everyone is seeing their true colours!

As to your example op from what I have read and understood so far, it is exactly that. Amazon can't deliver to your neighbour but also your neighbour let the item sit in the basket for ages and didn't order.

There's also one thing that has made me question this mass vaccination programme, why is Germany so behind in vaccinating its country? For once the UK has been proactive, in fact the conspiracy loonies were sharing content on SM saying the EU/Germany were using the UK as guinea pigs with the mass vaccination programme. Is this why the EU left it late especially with AZ orders as they weren't confident with the product? Until last week they were saying it wasn't successful for over 65's. What has changed since last week that got them so desperate and I believe AZ wasn't even approved?

DenisetheMenace · 30/01/2021 12:13

“I am not saying I would give up vaccines for the elderly or vulnerable”

That’s exactly what the U.K. is being asked to do though. In some parts of the country, all of group 1 has not jet been jabbed.

3asAbird · 30/01/2021 12:18

@aloetia

The Eu were always bullies especially to my home country but I guess with Brexit and this vaccine fuck up from their own end between AZ just shows everyone is seeing their true colours!

As to your example op from what I have read and understood so far, it is exactly that. Amazon can't deliver to your neighbour but also your neighbour let the item sit in the basket for ages and didn't order.

There's also one thing that has made me question this mass vaccination programme, why is Germany so behind in vaccinating its country? For once the UK has been proactive, in fact the conspiracy loonies were sharing content on SM saying the EU/Germany were using the UK as guinea pigs with the mass vaccination programme. Is this why the EU left it late especially with AZ orders as they weren't confident with the product? Until last week they were saying it wasn't successful for over 65's. What has changed since last week that got them so desperate and I believe AZ wasn't even approved?

I can only conclude Germany separate phizer vaccines are not within their possession. Yes we know they did top up order. We don't know what timeliness delivery were. Maybe there's clause they can only tap into top up vaccines once they used their eu allocated share. Its very embarrassing for Germany and its clear they prefer phizzer over the AZ.
Guinan · 30/01/2021 12:28

@aloetia
It has been made very clear that Germany's additional order from Pfizer will only be filled after the EU order (and we all know Pfizer is behind on that), so Germany does not have more than other Member States right now.

Frazzled2207 · 30/01/2021 12:29

The EU is a bit annoyed with us because some vaccine supply made in the EU will be shipped straight to the UK rather than keeping it in the EU. They're being massively unreasonable BUT if the opposite was the case and AZ was shipping out 'our' vaccine to the EU instead of keeping it in the UK we'd be mighty cross. But probably with the UK government for not sorting this out at the contractual stage, not with the EU. Hopefully most of the EU will realise that this is all the EU's fault and nothing to do with the British!

I suspect they have also got the knickers in a twist because it's just unacceptable right now to see the UK doing so much better than they are.

It's a pretty sorry state of affairs. Come April/March hopefully there will be enough supply around for us all that such petty squabbles will be forgotten.

VettiyaIruken · 30/01/2021 13:06

@SophieB100

I read the OP several times thinking WTF has Amazon got to do with vaccine delivery. It wasn't until I read d the responses I realised it was an an analogy. I think I need a cup of coffee!

^
Thank god it wasn't just me! I was thinking, what the hell has the title of the thread got to do with Amazon and the CF neighbour! Penny dropped after I read a dozen or so posts! Grin

😂 sorry. I should have started better. I was only one coffee old myself.
OP posts:
Wherediditgo · 30/01/2021 13:16

It is not a good analogy OP.

The situation between AZ & EU is much more complex than that. They have a contract, we have no idea what is in that contract because it is confidential. The EU are stating that AZ literally named the UK as a prime manufacturing location within the contract.

Who knows - I haven’t seen the contract and neither have you. And the EU has citizens it would like to keep from dying too. The UK media are spinning this in to an EU vs UK thing.... but it isn’t.

LenaBlack · 30/01/2021 13:35

16Wherediditgo
The contract is in the public domain since yesterday..
ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_21_302
it's not UK media at all actually..EU have shown themselves to be bullies all on their own..
EUs conduct has been shocking on this

PicsInRed · 30/01/2021 13:42

Very good OP Grin

Additionally, the neighbour is also your very recent and difficult ex husband for some reason you can't move further away... the divorce was vicious and the kids (little North Ire and her older brother Eire) are caught up in his revenge plots. He's very much of the mindset that his money and assets are his post divorce, but shamelessly demands you share your stuff with him when it suits him.

Mutual friends are desperate to remain "neutral" (that means taking his side) but starting to 🤔 😲 at exh's carrying on and wondering whether you might have had good reason to leave after all.

😉

Phymp · 30/01/2021 13:58

Your neighbour has now threatened Ireland the neighbour on the other side (N2) because she thinks you might get Amazon deliveries sent through her. You have had some issues with N2 but made up and get on really well now.
You decide as a measure of good faith to share some of your Amazon deliveries with N2 in order to continue the accord.
That really upsets the bad neighbour.

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