There's another vaccine! And we've got 60 million shots! And it's made here!

[HelloThereMeHearties]

And it's effective against the new UK variant!

And it will really wind the EU up!!!

Novavax has passed its stage three trial, now hopefully the MHRA will approve it!!!

I see the UK getting dragged into this even more....

I'm no lawyer but I suppose AZ will have to demonstrate that they met the contractual obligations to pre-existing contracts (the UK) whilst still maintaining 'best efforts' to the EU.
Could they have sent stock from the UK to the EU whilst still honouring the UK contract?

What a hornet's nest that will have far-reaching repercussions.

[quote samanthawashington]@FitzsimmonsMarvel

Capacity Limitations. In the event AstraZeneca's ability to fulfill its obligations under this Agreement is impeded by a competing agreement entered into by or on behalf of the Commission, AstraZeneca shall promptly inform the Commission. While AstraZeneca shall continue to use Best Reasonable Efforts to engage with its own contract manufacturers and suppliers to utilize the capacity and/or components, the Commission will assist in finding a mutually acceptable solution for this Agreement and the competing agreement. To the extent AstraZeneca’s performance under this Agreement is impeded by any such competing agreements, AstraZeneca shall not be deemed in breach of this Agreement as a result of any such delay due to the aforementioned competing agreement(s)

Pretty clear from the contract in question.[/quote]
Could you please explain why you think this provision is relevant in this context? Where is the "competing agreement entered into by or on behalf of the Commission "?

@LouiseBelchersBunnyEars

It’s quite interesting, as clearly when signed the EU included the U.K., but doesn’t now. So it seems the issue is when they say that it will come from within the EU, does this still include the U.K. or not.

I personally think anyone who believes this has nothing to do with Brexit are being pretty naive, maybe willfully so

The contract included manufacturing sites in the EU and the UK, from what I can tell.

@DamnUserName21 a good summary of the issues. I agree

Could you please explain why you think this provision is relevant in this context? Where is the "competing agreement entered into by or on behalf of the Commission "?

Fitzsimmon could you say more? I’m not following and agree with pp

@MarshaBradyo I don’t think it’s relevant. @samanthawashington posted that

Oh right yep

[quote Hopeisnotastrategy]**@thedancingbear "We have the worst death rate per capita of any major country".

This is in large part because of the way we are counting deaths - wrongly, in my opinion. I understand that in the UK anyone diagnosed in the previous 28 days who subsequently dies is attributed to Covid-19, even if they were run over by a bus. You would think there would be an international protocol for things like this so accurate comparisons could be made.

Interestingly, I read the other day that if we were counting deaths the same way as the Germans we'd "only" be at around 25,000.[/quote]
Wow. That's some difference!

Do you have a link to that? Germany have seemed to come out of this exceptionally well comparatively so it would be good to see how they register their deaths.

@LouiseBelchersBunnyEars

It’s quite interesting, as clearly when signed the EU included the U.K., but doesn’t now. So it seems the issue is when they say that it will come from within the EU, does this still include the U.K. or not.

I personally think anyone who believes this has nothing to do with Brexit are being pretty naive, maybe willfully so

The UK declined to be part of the EU effort to procure vaccines, so no there is no confusion here. The EU was negotiating on behalf of its member states and remember we actually weren't members of the EU after Jan 31st of last year - that's the date we left - not Dec 31st (which was the end of the transition period).

Why didn’t the EU order some of this new vaccine? This is going to make everything look even worse for them. It never rains

@DamnUserName21

I would love to see the AZ contract with the EU (and have it explained by experts!) to get to the truth of matter. The EU have requested its release but AZ haven't (or will not) as yet. AZ have said they agreed to supply the UK first but I don't know if this is in contract.

Someone on media yesterday was saying the AZ and EU contract was a best endeavours contract.

@zafferana have you read the contract!!!??? It specifically states in the management and supply section that the EU definition includes the U.K. from a production perspective

I have no desire to wind the EU up, but I do think that as one of the worst affected countries in the world, we should do our best to vaccinate our citizens as fast as possible, certainly the over 50s. I think we should then be sharing our vaccines with the other worst affected countries. I’d rather give any excess UK vaccines directly to Belgium, Italy and Spain rather than to the EU as an organisation to divvy up. Germany’s death rate per million is about a third of ours, whereas Belgium’s is even higher.

Germany have seemed to come out of this exceptionally well comparatively so it would be good to see how they register their deaths.

They have come out well because of a robust healthcare system that has never been completely overwhelmed. A system that is not under-funded and to which people are happy to contribute to, in the form of high taxes.

Tight restrictions were introduced in October, when our ICU Covid occupancy was just over 5%. We went into lockdown when it went over 15%. The government has prevented our hospitals collapsing by taking extra measures and locking down very early. Excessive measures, in my opinion, but it's worked incredibly well.

GPs and other services are still functioning normally. During the first lockdown there were hundreds of Covid patients from Italy or France who were sent here, because there were still plenty of unused beds in the hospitals.

[quote FitzsimmonsMarvel]@zafferana have you read the contract!!!??? It specifically states in the management and supply section that the EU definition includes the U.K. from a production perspective[/quote]
No @FitzsimmonsMarvel I have far better things to do with my time. I was merely resonding to the PP who said that last summer the UK was part of the EU when it wasn't.

My take (for what it's worth) is:

1. It's more complicated than the EU's position (we paid so you have to deliver)
2. It's more complicated than AZ's position (best interests so no we don't).

I think there's sufficient ambiguity that the lawyers can have hours and hours of highly profitable fun arguing it through the courts, if they want to.

I think it will turn on whether AZ used the money from the EU to invest in production for that contract, or whether they used it more generally. But I am not a lawyer!

What the argument doesn't do, though, is get the EU vaccines now. And the UK production is only 2 million doses a week so, even if the EU requisitioned all of it, it wouldn't make up the hole in the EU order.

If I were a vaccine producer who didn't have a contract to deliver to the EU yet I would be thinking very hard about whether I wanted to strike a deal with them or not.

[quote FitzsimmonsMarvel]@zafferana have you read the contract!!!??? It specifically states in the management and supply section that the EU definition includes the U.K. from a production perspective[/quote]
That's right. It's not about the countries as such although EU wanted production to remain in Europe (including UK)--it's about where the manufacturing plants are.

Janssen results just out. 72% efficacy in US trial and 66% worldwide against a variety of variants.
This is the single dose vaccine. 30M doses on order.

They are doing trials on a booster dose and I would assume this would increase efficacy.

It seems really bizarre to me that they were able to say the U.K. is included in the EU, surely we would have needed to agree that with them?

@EileenGC

Germany have seemed to come out of this exceptionally well comparatively so it would be good to see how they register their deaths.

They have come out well because of a robust healthcare system that has never been completely overwhelmed. A system that is not under-funded and to which people are happy to contribute to, in the form of high taxes.

Tight restrictions were introduced in October, when our ICU Covid occupancy was just over 5%. We went into lockdown when it went over 15%. The government has prevented our hospitals collapsing by taking extra measures and locking down very early. Excessive measures, in my opinion, but it's worked incredibly well.

GPs and other services are still functioning normally. During the first lockdown there were hundreds of Covid patients from Italy or France who were sent here, because there were still plenty of unused beds in the hospitals.

I heard some whispers of wanting to change PHE to a model similar to Germany's a few months back.

Sounds like this should be more than a thought as their healthcare system is better

@Motorina

My take (for what it's worth) is:

1. It's more complicated than the EU's position (we paid so you have to deliver)
2. It's more complicated than AZ's position (best interests so no we don't).

I think there's sufficient ambiguity that the lawyers can have hours and hours of highly profitable fun arguing it through the courts, if they want to.

I think it will turn on whether AZ used the money from the EU to invest in production for that contract, or whether they used it more generally. But I am not a lawyer!

What the argument doesn't do, though, is get the EU vaccines now. And the UK production is only 2 million doses a week so, even if the EU requisitioned all of it, it wouldn't make up the hole in the EU order.

If I were a vaccine producer who didn't have a contract to deliver to the EU yet I would be thinking very hard about whether I wanted to strike a deal with them or not.

Yep, ambiguous ain't the word!!!!!

Big Pharma will always do biz with the EU because they have money to burn (and a huge market!) They just won't manufacture in the EU (because of the export ban) but I do think the EU need to tread carefully and not piss off the vaccine makers.

I wonder what Canada and Israel (EU produced Phizer recipients) think about a possible export ban.

@LouiseBelchersBunnyEars

It seems really bizarre to me that they were able to say the U.K. is included in the EU, surely we would have needed to agree that with them?

I think it's because two of the manufacturing plants are in the UK. It's a private sector business contract, not a trade agreement.

We are really seeing the EU leaders true colours now though.

I really don't want to sound like a child in the playground, but we got our vaccine supply fair and square, so why should we be forced to give it to the EU, at the cost of our citizens just because Von der leyen and her cronies fannied about for three months instead of ordering doses.

And I do think that it is sour grapes over brexit on their side. This has made the fact that they can't order us about anymore sink in.

I voted to remain. Now I'm beginning to feel glad that it swung the other way. Even if we had remained, we'd have been low down on the EU's list of priorities.

[quote FitzsimmonsMarvel]@zafferana have you read the contract!!!??? It specifically states in the management and supply section that the EU definition includes the U.K. from a production perspective[/quote]
I don't think it's quite as straightforward as that, there are two sections 5.1 and 5.4 the UK is only included with the EU in 5.4

Which means that the UK is not included for the first 300 million vaccines, but can be included for subsequent ( the EU reserved a right to order more )orders

This fits with the CEO's interview comments.

@Fieldofyellowflowers what a load of rubbish. This is to do with the production of the vaccine. The U.K. don’t own the vaccine produced in their country any more than they own anything else made in the country. It belongs to people who purchased it. The U.K. have purchased doses and the EU have purchased doses. The EU interpret their contract as meaning doses produced in the U.K. can be sold to EU, -Astra interpret it that it’s only doses produced in EU hence why EU aren’t getting all the doses they expected in this tranche. The lawyers are now involved to resolve this.