Why should the UK vaccine supply be diverted to Europe?

[lovelemoncurd]

They ordered 3 months later than the UK. They have themselves less time to sort glitches. They have been slow to the table and now they wish to punish to UK for being efficient.

I was a remain voter. I'm starting to change my mind!

@Dongdingdong were the same rules applied to PPE?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/eu-tells-britain-give-us-your-covid-vaccines-jkhfdlm7w?shareToken=dd42c2447c1630cb15369c1b905671a6

One objective of Britain’s vaccinene_ task force has always been to contribute to supply in lower income countries. Norway has also pledged to donate some of its stock to poorer nations.^

(That was meant to be an italic quote from the times article, MN markup seems to have screwed it up)

A lot of the other diseases against which we vaccinate present a significant risk to all demographics. That's not the case for Covid.

If the UK has vaccine, should it vaccinate an 85 year old British person or an 85 year old Malawian first? Clearly the British person.

What about a healthy 20 year old Brit and an 85 year old Malawian? Less clearcut.

Though your 20 year old Brit would probably be clear if you asked them... it should go to the 85 year old. Happily for us, there is evidence that Generation Z are more altruistic and socially and globally conscious than their elders.

@Bluethrough

What do you think Europe is going to do with vaccines, whenever their ponderous procurement process gets around to it? They're going to vaccinate all their adult population as soon as possible, including healthy young adults. They're not going to be worrying overmuch about people in Brazil or Cambodia. They're going to be looking after themselves first. Why should Britain not do otherwise?

So because the EU might behave badly, we must do so too.

I see where you are coming from now.

But we are not behaving badly, we are doing what's best for our country and citizens, the eu wiuldnt give up vaccines for people In the UK!

I'm mid 20s, I want the vaccine, and nothing is gonna stop that, not a 80 year old in Europe

What about a healthy 20 year old Brit and an 85 year old Malawian? Less clearcut.

How do you logistically manage that? We know in poorer countries lack of service delivery in remote areas or lack of information about the effectiveness of vaccines is a major reason many do not receive them. How do we rectify that overnight?

@MessAllOver
The vaccine would seem a very good place to draw the line.
Let's be much more clear here.
This thread is about the EU facing approximately 2 months of reduced numbers of vaccines; still enough to first dose their healthcare workers and vulnerable people if they chose the pragmatic strategy the JCVI has recommended because of the UK also not having enough early doses. UK reductions in this time period wouldc date vaccines from vulnerable UK people to give them instead as second vaccines to vulnerable EU people. That's the figures.

Using vaccines elsewhere requires covax funding because logistics are set up for supply from other places. The UK government has agreed with you that this is a necessary project and has contributed about 25% more to that scheme than the entirety of the EU including Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Sweden, Netherlands etc. What's needed here is to lobby other countries to contribute more at that can pick up pace, stopping our own vaccination programme will not help developing countries and it's very unclear why you think it would.

@Bookriddle. So you're happy for an 85 year old to die to prevent what is really a very minimal risk to you?

Malawi’s COVID deaths is current 555. Looks like they are doing well with how they are managing the pandemic compared to us. So I’m not sure it’s as easy to say an 85 year in Malawi needs it more than a 20 year old in the U.K. if the 20 year in the U.K. is a health care worker or training to be a teacher maybe their need is greater.

Its too simplistic to make the comparison on age, there are a tonne of local, geographic, health and occupational factors to consider.

This is going to affect Ireland's vaccination programme, but there is very little in the Irish media about it.

It also has implications for NI and the open border between north and south - what will happen when NI is vaccinated and ROI is not? Will the south be in lockdown for longer?

I've checked both the Irish Times and RTE news websites for this EU-Astra Zenaca story this morning. In both places the story is buried and so far down the site I had to look quite hard for it. In the Irish Times, it is given a very pro-EU angle, the angle being UK risks a trade war weeks after Brexit, depicting the UK as the unreasonable one and mainly quoting EU officials.

@MessAllOver - I don't think @Bookriddle has the ability to set up a cold chain logistics network from UK to Malawi. Their supplies will ultimately be coming from India. You've really got to try to understand a bit about vaccine distribution. Try reading the Gavi site, it might help.

I'm not prepared to give up my job because some are unemployed. I'm not prepared to give up my home because some are homeless.
I'm not prepared to carry on in lockdown & not seeing family because someone else in another country "needs" a vaccine more than me.

The UK was aware of geopolitical issues and how that might impact on the UK's vaccine supply.

They had protections written into the contract to ensure that it wouldn't be damaged by those.

One of those turns out to be the slow ordering of the EU, which means that global production of vaccine was slower. Meaning vaccine shortages internationally are more chronic.

The UK had tried to insulate itself from that possibility so that it didn't lose out for others slow movement.

That is pretty prudent. And was wise in the context of Brexit.

If you reflect on things in that context - contracts which ringfence uk production and required first guaranteed supply (rather than best efforts) to protect against global shortages, the UK (rather than AZ) position is less about 'stealing' anyone elses supply and more about protection from the impact of decision making elsewhere which might be flawed or suboptimal.

It was obvious from the word go that competition for vaccines initially would be huge and that had the potential to spark a trade war (brexit was always risking trade wars) so thinking about that should have top of any national or international strategy.

The uk was well aware of how exporting vaccine to other countries would look domestically. The EU's strategy on this has been different for various reasons. They are realising that slow ordering, poorer contracts, logistics with Pfizer compared to AZ and production delays are causing problems and are now trying to mitigate problems relating to that. It hasnt properly identified problems with vaccine shortages in the way it should have during planning.

Its difficult to get away from this reality. And the contrast between the uk and eu only makes it look worse. Which is one reason why they aren't insisting on az vaccine coming from india...

Try reading

This

Giving vaccines away to other countries before one country is vaccinated is nonsense. Herd immunity requires a very hight percentage of a population - including young people - to be vaccinated.

Though your 20 year old Brit would probably be clear if you asked them... it should go to the 85 year old. Happily for us, there is evidence that Generation Z are more altruistic and socially and globally conscious than their elders.

So what are these 'altruistic' young folks going to do?

Tell the nurse they don't want their vaccine, but ask them to pop it in an envelope for them so they can send it off to Malawi?

@marbellamarc

I'm not prepared to give up my job because some are unemployed. I'm not prepared to give up my home because some are homeless. I'm not prepared to carry on in lockdown & not seeing family because someone else in another country "needs" a vaccine more than me.

Do you wear a face mask to protect other people? Do you stick to lockdown rules?

“Why else have we drawn a line in the sand and said we want our 100m AZ doses first”

Because a Government’s first duty is to protect its citizens.

Yes because that protects me & my loved ones in turn.

I do despair of the pathetic virtue signalling that has appeared on this thread.

Sending it to Malawi? Dear god.

Herd immunity requires a very hight percentage of a population - including young people - to be vaccinated.

I keep repeating this.

So what are these 'altruistic' young folks going to do?

Tell the nurse they don't want their vaccine, but ask them to pop it in an envelope for them so they can send it off to Malawi?

Do you wear a face mask to protect other people? Do you stick to lockdown rules?

Another massive leap! Because I recognise that the majority of a population needs to be vaccinated for protection I therefore must break lockdown rules & not wear masks 🤦🏻‍♀️

If there is one thing we are outstanding at as a nation it’s queuing.. I think we did well with informed choices and early action we have a good supply and we must see how we can sensibly help those who moved more slowly and made less favourable bets.

However there’s a huge difference between how I would react to someone pushing to the front and someone asking. I expect everyone should cool down and remember that those without enough vaccine are scared and need help.

I also don't buy the idea that a 20 year old Brit doesn't need it. Even if there is a minute reduction in the risk of transmission from having the vaccine then it benefits the entire country for that 20 year old to have it.