People leaving London and now the UK for good

[Musicaldilemma]

We are in Outer London. Ten sets of friends have moved out of London to other parts of the U.K. over the summer. Now many other families are in the process of emigrating to The Middle East, various part of Asia, 2 NZ families who have been here 20 years trying to go home and 3 Aussie families (1 parent Australian). It is definitely much more than usual. It seems everyone who is rich enough and able to is trying to leave the country for good. It got me thinking to when I was a young successful professional - I think I may have tried to leave too. I am worried we are going to end up with an unhealthy, elderly population with all the young, successful people propping the economy back gone. I think the latest rounds of news have broken quite a lot of people I know who have international options, it looks worse than immediately after Brexit. Is it just my friendship group and the people I know at work? (Lawyer?) Or are others observing this too?

[quote trulydelicious]@TonMoulin

I see what you are saying and I agree to an extent.

I have experienced life in other places too (my view is far from blinkered). That's why I find these attitudes all the more hypocritical (apart from offensive and disrespectful)

when people want to leave, it’s nothing personal

But they don't leave, do they? They just stay, reap the benefits, fuel discontent and keep on whining![/quote]
I think it’s the opposite. If you’ve spent life elsewhere the U.K. can be great. Not for everyone granted.

But often people talk up other countries and talk down here.

@MarshaBradyo

But often people talk up other countries and talk down here

Exactly, bonkers!

I have lived abroad and it is that experience that has shown me how much we have to be grateful for in the UK.

For example the racism I have witnessed in France and Spain is OFF THE SCALE compared to here. And that's before you get into their appalling youth unemployment and incendiary politics.

The UK vaccinated more people in the last three days than France has ALTOGETHER.

France does do better croissants, though.

France does do better croissants, though

I work for the NHS and we are getting a lot of enquiries from Hong Kong , the Philippines , Ireland and Russia, of all places. The few colleagues who have left the country had planned to return home anyway and a senior consultant who went to New Zealand came back. What seems to put a lot of people off is the cost of accommodation. Very few EU nationals have left either. I was chatting to a colleague from Poland and asked him if he had plans to go back and he said , go back to what ?.

In London about 700,000 migrant workers have left since Covid began, which is about 8% of the population and the biggest population drop since WW2

Also read this last week and surprised it's not bigger news

People have always left London, but usually there's always new people coming in. Bound to be a lot less this year between Brexit and covid. Lots of EU nationals won't meet the new visa requirements and who wants to come to one of the worst hit covid spots?

My university is predicting a 50% fall in EU student numbers now that Brexit has happened, that's thousands in London right there

I love the UK, it’s my birthplace and where my children were born (they’ve grown up going back and forth to Australia for varying lengths of time). I had a lovely childhood there and my family and so many of my friends are still there, although lots wish they weren’t.
We decided to leave again after the Brexit vote in 2016 and the vote for another Tory government. Having lived through the Thatcher years, we didn’t want to go through anything like that again (we’re both health professionals). We could see what was happening to the NHS and my DH wasn’t prepared to lower his standards and risk his professional reputation offering a substandard, and in some ways, unsafe service.
We looked at going to Canada for a change, but there were too many hoops to jump through and it was easy for us to come back to Australia because we’re dual nationals, so we arrived back here in 2017 and haven’t looked back. I love where we live, my DH has two jobs he really enjoys in well funded services, he earns 3x his uk salary, in normal times we travel a lot and enjoy exploring this side of the world (although I miss Europe at times). Two of our DDs are here, both working and studying (their wages are much higher than they would be for similar roles in the UK and uni fees are lower). I don’t work, but might do if the right job came along, I’ve made some lovely friends from all over the world and life is good.
It’s really hard not being able to go to the UK to see friends and family at the moment - the world feels huge right now, especially after my dad had a fall, but my parents tell us we’ve done the right thing coming back here for our DDs futures. As a pp said, I just wish I could bring them here too, then life would be pretty perfect.
Everywhere has its negative points, and we have a complete arse in charge here too, but the state governments have more power which keeps them a bit more in line.
Between austerity, Brexit and Covid, I’m so grateful to be here, but it would have been harder to persuade me to move if remain had won and the Tories weren’t hellbent on destroying the NHS.

@dreamingbohemian

People have always left London, but usually there's always new people coming in

Why do you want more people coming into London?

My university is predicting a 50% fall in EU student numbers now that Brexit has happened

There won't be a shortage of students.

Even after Brexit EU students can still apply, why is Brexit relevant? I'm not following your argument

@trulydelicious EU students can still apply but they are no longer entitled to home fees, and would have to pay the astronomical international student fee. This is very likely to put a large number off.

Even after Brexit EU students can still apply, why is Brexit relevant? I'm not following your argument

Prior to Brexit, EU students paid £9250 a year and could get tuition fee loans to cover this. After Brexit, they have to pay international fees, which are often £20,000 a year or more, with no loan to help. Of course that makes the UK a lot less appealing.

@Ploughingthrough and @Siepie

True, may be problematic

Perhaps we should ensure the appeal does not rely solely on the affordability of the fees then

So you seriously expect 18 year olds in the EU to raise £60K in fees, plus approx £30K living costs, plus probably health insurance costs, to do a degree in the UK, with no access to a loan? When they could do a degree in various EU countries in English for close to no tuition fees?

It's not just that the fees are higher, you also have to show that you have enough money in the bank to pay them AND £14,000 a year living expenses at the time you apply for your visa. So you have to have 35K sitting there in the bank when you apply.

Yes, wealthy EU nationals will still come to some UK universities because of their reputation, but there are plenty of good universities in the EU that will cost a fraction. Universities in France, Germany and the Netherlands are massively expanding their English-language degree offerings to try to capture that market.

I do find it really depressing how people still don't understand the impact of Brexit. Like just because you haven't bothered to read about all the problems, there are no problems.

@slitheringsnakes

So you seriously expect 18 year olds in the EU to raise £60K in fees, plus approx £30K living costs, plus probably health insurance costs, to do a degree in the UK

These 18 year olds have parents who may cough up if the degree is sufficiently appealing (we need to make sure it is, obviously). Not just EU students, studens from all over the world - challenging but doable, why not?

@slitheringsnakes

So you seriously expect 18 year olds in the EU to raise £60K in fees, plus approx £30K living costs, plus probably health insurance costs, to do a degree in the UK, with no access to a loan? When they could do a degree in various EU countries in English for close to no tuition fees?

Yes exactly.

There are excellent universities in Paris and Amsterdam and Berlin and Vienna, and they will be cheaper and less hassle.

I know that York University are opening a campus in Greece to stay connected to the EU after Brexit, I wonder if there will be more universities doing that?

@raskolnikova

I know that York University are opening a campus in Greece to stay connected to the EU after Brexit, I wonder if there will be more universities doing that?

Yes loads are. It's a great idea but it won't make up for the loss in numbers (the EU campuses can only host a small number of programmes).

To be clear not every university in the UK will be affected so heavily by Brexit, but the London universities all have significant EU numbers and we are talking about London a lot here.

@dreamingbohemian

Like just because you haven't bothered to read about all the problems, there are no problems

I take your point. But something similar happens in the US (I'm not too versed on what it's like over there, maybe someone here can enlighten us), those who want to study at reputable universities either are awarded a grant or have to pay high fees to do it.

I'm just trying to say that it's maybe not ideal but not an unsurmountable hurdle either

@Frodont I was made redundant for being pregnant at 6 months pregnant, having been treated like crap at my poorly paid job. I hadn't been there for 2 years yet, so the law in this country didn't allow me to claim unfair dismissal. I repeat, I want better for my son.

@Fencil
So the law firms will be cutting salaries, in return for the employees providing their own office space, and paying utility bills and for 24 hour wifi? The employers are laughing all the way to the bank, aren't they?

That perfectly describes my public sector job for the last five years!

[quote MooseBreath]@Frodont I was made redundant for being pregnant at 6 months pregnant, having been treated like crap at my poorly paid job. I hadn't been there for 2 years yet, so the law in this country didn't allow me to claim unfair dismissal. I repeat, I want better for my son.[/quote]
I hope you get it soon.

What is the job that can only be done here? Was that your situation

Did he work in a job before arriving can he not go back to that?

Not that exact one. But same area

[quote trulydelicious]@dreamingbohemian

Like just because you haven't bothered to read about all the problems, there are no problems

I take your point. But something similar happens in the US (I'm not too versed on what it's like over there, maybe someone here can enlighten us), those who want to study at reputable universities either are awarded a grant or have to pay high fees to do it.

I'm just trying to say that it's maybe not ideal but not an unsurmountable hurdle either[/quote]
In the US you have loans and grants but they are available for US citizens. Foreign students can apply for all sorts of bursaries and things like that, or get a loan from their home government. So yes there are options but it's not easy.

I agree that the UK government could make it easier for UK universities to keep EU student numbers -- after all, they could decide to keep home fees for EU students or make the student visas easier to get. It's not nearly so hard to get a student visa for other EU countries.

But there is no sign the government are willing to do this. So here we are.

To make up that income, it's possible universities will have to cut programmes or lower admissions standards, and that will reduce their international reputation further.

We'll see by the end of this year how it looks. If it's a serious drop in numbers then we might see the government change its policies.

@MarshaBradyo I will not disclose the job for privacy reasons, but it is in Security. DH is British and did his PhD here, then got this job. I moved here to be with DH and we have since had a baby. My job was a bog-standard office position.

[quote trulydelicious]@dreamingbohemian

Like just because you haven't bothered to read about all the problems, there are no problems

I take your point. But something similar happens in the US (I'm not too versed on what it's like over there, maybe someone here can enlighten us), those who want to study at reputable universities either are awarded a grant or have to pay high fees to do it.

I'm just trying to say that it's maybe not ideal but not an unsurmountable hurdle either[/quote]
When students in the US want to go to university, they take out student loans (or, as you say, get a scholarship). In the EU (or its individual countries) there isn't an equivalent loans system to those in the US and UK. 20% of my department's intake is currently from the EU. I doubt that even 5% of those students would be able to find the upfront costs of 3 years of tuition and accommodation fees. And, even if they could, there is no obvious reason why they would pay that kind of money when there are cheaper alternatives, or when they could go to the US.

We will probably end up replacing that fee income by recruiting more students from China. But this is not a good situation, for a number of reasons (e.g. poorer English language skills than EU students, less engagement in class discussion, and increasing political interference from China itself).