Thread 2 - how long will people make these sacrifices

[DappledOliveGroves]

First thread is full.

If anyone has the willpower to continue arguing, please carry on!

@lightand I know nurses without ICU training, just decent ability to adapt, are being transferred to ICU when needed. They are just barely covering the 30 or 40% absence levels from illness. Training ICU nurses over the year wouldnt have helped much, especially as it would have taken from services that were already back logged that are causing deaths, like oncology, cardiac, general. Oncology nurses have told me of patients whose treatments were delayed, their immune system plummeted, then they caught covid and coukdnt fight it so died at age 40. That was without the staff absence they have now. There is no fix to this. I hate Boris on a good day, but he couldnt have done much more NHS wise with money.

@lightand

I wasn’t trying to imply that additional resources wouldn’t be useful, and the Government have provided this. My issue was that no amount of NHS investment could have simultaneously enabled the NHS to manage and enabled life to continue as normal.

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

I thought their was conflicting research as well- some studies show it is no more deadly. So what is the truth?

Is the research peer reviewed etc? I don't know enough about how you can 'trust' the research, but it doesn't actually seem a good idea, for one thing, if it genuinely is more deadly, to present it to the public at a stage when it has not been fully reviewed. It certainly feels like manipulation, giving the timing of so many of the announcements.

I think so too. I'm sure they're not making it up, but some scientists are a lot more cautious about the conclusions they seem to be drawing. There's a reason they chose to focus on this so much. They're worried about complacency and need a new scare tactic. Looking at the headlines on today's news, as well as many posts here on MN, it appears to have worked.

Re government spending on the NHS instead of furlough..

Ok I admit I have no knowledge of this area at all. So maybe someone who works in the NHS can enlighten me.

Would it not be possible to provide fast track training to become a kind of “assistant nurse” who only provides services related to covid? In the same way phlebotomists only take blood, could someone be trained only to deal with aspects of covid?

And increasing the salaries of nurses and healthcare workers is obviously important (and was even before covid). Along with providing accommodation near to their work, to try and help with exhaustion.

Surely this would be preferable to endlessly funding lockdowns.

Maybe some of the lockdown enthusiasts who care so deeply about the lives of others could even volunteer to retrain - although I suspect virtue signalling about sacrifices from their sofas will be preferable for many.

How can you all listen to nurses and doctors pleading that you follow the rules and ease their burdens, and say - no ta. I'm going to have my mates round.

One could also argue how anyone with an ouce of compassion could read some of the harrowing posts on this site about people being suicidal, losing homes and businesses or not seeing relatives for months before they died alone and not understand why some people are at breaking point. But it's much easier to pretend it's all about going to see your mates and having a piss up.

"I agree about how money in the NHS wouldnt fix this"

Although there was a report a couple of weeks ago that an NHS contract for some london private hospital beds had not been renewed (different from the story about private capacity being paid for but not used in the summer.) I had wondered about this as it was fairly big news when private hospitals were 'requisitioned' (not really but ykwim) last March. I don't think the news report was followed up much, but it would be interesting to know if the private sector is being used as much as it could be - in London there is a fairly significant private hospital presence.

"Would it not be possible to provide fast track training to become a kind of “assistant nurse” who only provides services related to covid? In the same way phlebotomists only take blood, could someone be trained only to deal with aspects of covid?"

Someone, interesting suggestion - I did also read a suggestion somewhere that even training more assistants could help the existing nurses, take some of the pressure off them. I have no idea how it works, or whether that would be the case. All these things take a lot of organisation and money of course - would be interesting to know if it has been considered since last March.

@TwirpingBird It can change going forward. It needs to gear up ready for Sept this year. It is somewhat doable, and not at all a case of giving up.
There are already people asking questions as to why the NHS didnt better start adapting last summer. If it isnt seen to be adapting big time, by this Sept, I am not sure what people will say.

"@TwirpingBird It can change going forward. It needs to gear up ready for Sept this year. It is somewhat doable, and not at all a case of giving up."

Yes, I think it is also a real case of ''do what you can' , even if it isn't going to be 'enough'.

I think we also need to think ahead - for the future, is there a case for having permanently spare capacity - hospital staff who usually work on other things in the NHS but are ready, trained (with refresher courses and so on) to return when necessary, spare ICU beds, spare other beds, and so on. Expensive and on the surface wasteful, but perhaps less so than lockdowns. Hope they will never be needed, but then you hope your insurance policy will never be needed, doesn't mean it's a waste. This experience has changed a lot of economic calculations, i think!

@tinylittlepiggy

Genuine question - those who will stop following the 'rules' ... what do you think should happen when / if you get Covid care wise?

I think those who stop obeying the rules should be cared for. The same as I think people who have had accidents due to speeding or other carelessness should be cared for. And criminals. And people who don't look after their own health. And people who are unpleasant, hurtful or selfish by someone's yardstick (which tbh covers most people) Care is not provided based on a subjective judgement of whether the receiver 'deserves' it in any other situation. Why should this be different?

The ones who wont comply any longer are so very selfish, and we will continue to be in this mess because of you.

@Nemostripes

Today, I am not complying. My 60-year-old mum has been slowly dying of cancer for 18 months and is deteriorating swiftly now.

My brother and I had to worry that we could be stopped by the police if we go to her bedside together. I have officially peaked.

I'm so sorry 💐

My lovely Dad died of cancer at home last summer. I didn't give a damn about the rules and spent days at his bedside and was there when he passed.

I have absolutely zero regrets about rule breaking under those circumstances.

@PerfectPearl

The ones who wont comply any longer are so very selfish, and we will continue to be in this mess because of you.

Yes it's those not complying who are to blame for increased cases and it's totally not still spreading because people have to work, it's rife in care homes and loads of people are catching in hospital. You're 100% correct that it's only those breaking the rules who are to blame...

@PerfectPearl

The ones who wont comply any longer are so very selfish, and we will continue to be in this mess because of you.

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

@PerfectPearl

The ones who wont comply any longer are so very selfish, and we will continue to be in this mess because of you.

No. It's a virus, which is infinitely more powerful than we are.

Unless you lockdown the entire country, prevent anyone from leaving their homes at all, for any reason, shut supermarkets, close hospitals and shoot anyone that steps outside, then it will spread.

The sooner we realise we are not in control, and the sooner we get rid of our superiority complex that somehow all of the human race must be saved at all costs, the quicker we can get on with things.

“The ones who wont comply any longer are so very selfish, and we will continue to be in this mess because of you.”

Not all lockdowns are equal. It’s selfish of you to expect me to imprison my toddler in a flat, with only walks and the parks for a break.

It’s selfish of you to expect someone to avoid seeing a dying relative for over a year.

@Aixenprovence

"I agree about how money in the NHS wouldnt fix this"

Although there was a report a couple of weeks ago that an NHS contract for some london private hospital beds had not been renewed (different from the story about private capacity being paid for but not used in the summer.) I had wondered about this as it was fairly big news when private hospitals were 'requisitioned' (not really but ykwim) last March. I don't think the news report was followed up much, but it would be interesting to know if the private sector is being used as much as it could be - in London there is a fairly significant private hospital presence.

Where I am (not London) there are contracts with pretty much every private hospital in the area, for them to do all sorts of elective work, including urgent cancer treatments and other urgent surgery.

“User2921

tinylittlepiggy
Genuine question - those who will stop following the 'rules' ... what do you think should happen when / if you get Covid care wise?
I think those who stop obeying the rules should be cared for. The same as I think people who have had accidents due to speeding or other carelessness should be cared for. And criminals. And people who don't look after their own health. And people who are unpleasant, hurtful or selfish by someone's yardstick (which tbh covers most people)
Care is not provided based on a subjective judgement of whether the receiver 'deserves' it in any other situation. Why should this be different?“

Completely agree. Tiny little piggy I do see your point. But discriminating on who “deserves” healthcare is a very slippery slope.

Should smokers be denied covid treatment, as they have opted to be unhealthy and damage their lungs despite knowing the covid risks. How about the clinically obese, are they less worthy because they didn’t make themselves lose weight. Or perhaps people who don’t regularly eat fruit and veg everyday and who drink a lot, should they be denied help in favour of someone who has chosen a healthy lifestyle? Where is the line?

*"This kind of universal shutdown, where facts aren’t allowed to be debated is actually dangerous and stops people feeling free to voice opinions that don’t conform to the narrative of the majority.

What a surprise!! You don’t want to reveal your own circumstances because I suspect you are probably not too badly affected by lockdown."*

So to point over, where you repeat that facts aren't allowed to be debated - you're just digging in further with the same narrative. Whereas the reality is that you've likely been confusing fact with opinion, so that when someone points out that your "facts" are nothing of the kind you get your nose in a sling about being silenced. I've seen it all over the board.

Point 2. No, I'm not playing. I refuse to say that I'm doing worse or better than you through this, because I refuse to say whether anyone is. There's no one cohort that's definitely struggling the most, there are always individual circumstances that make or break a person. And for others to read people saying 'well obviously if you're ...x with y... and then you z... that's the worst kind of circumstance to be in for this' then that might be the thing that breaks them - because they're not X or y, they're q and k, but they're still not coping and more they feel that they ought to have been, so they get to feel weak on top of everything else.

So no, no misery top trumps here.

And you're not being silenced if someone else has better data than you, and still listened to you in the first place - just pointed out you were wrong.

@Wishfulthinking1977 your post in Page 4 (mobile)- I basically want to cut it out and stick it on my fridge. Thank you.

"Where I am (not London) there are contracts with pretty much every private hospital in the area, for them to do all sorts of elective work, including urgent cancer treatments and other urgent surgery."

Yes, I think it was specifically a london hospitals issue that i read about.

Actually just re reading @Someonetookmyname and you've remade my point for me - you say facts aren't allowed to be debated means you're not free to voice an opinion. Facts are not opinions. Opinions are not fact. Being told your opinion is stupid is not being silenced, it's action meeting consequence. Being told your facts are wrong because you've misinterpreted, or no longer true because they're out of date, is also not being silenced, it's just how it works.

Have a word with yourself. And maybe look up logical fallacies next time you're browsing.

@DameFanny

*"Teachers have simply refused to do their duty, because they're scared.""

Be ashamed of yourself @TheDailyCarbunkle.

Teachers are still working, many of them trying to do in person teaching at the same time as remote lesson planning.

A completely shitty thing to say.

The duty of teachers is to teach all the children in their classes, not just a select few. They refused to do that, because they were scared. Those two sentences are 100% factual. I'm not sure I'm the one who should be ashamed.

Who refused to teach their classes @TheDailyCarbunkle?

@Someonetookmyname that's exactly what I was thinking. Surely with all this money, any medical professional could be trained to be a a Covid only nurse or doctor in ICU, since last March? So obviously not with all the skills of a proper ICU professional, but just one specialising in Covid care?

I think some of the comments here are appalling. How do you all know lockdowns are the solution to this? Do you not care about the fallout from this? Can you not hear the distress from the people commenting here?
I think lots of people who were working and commuting in horrible office jobs are much happier with their lives now, with no consideration for all the other people suffering. I'm very lucky not to have suffered financially throughout this, but I am able to empathise with the stories I hear and realise society would be much better off if we went back to the way we were.