Thread 2 - how long will people make these sacrifices

[DappledOliveGroves]

First thread is full.

If anyone has the willpower to continue arguing, please carry on!

@BonnieDundee

We are nearly there now. Light at the end of the tunnel.

I watched the press briefing tonight and I see no light at the end of any tunnel, just more of the same

Completely agree. No light at the end of the tunnel. I’m not sure if the press conference was meant to scare us into compliance but it made me just think what the hell is the point?

I’m assuming schools are shut now till September. The government seems to think blended learning is a HUGE success. At what cost? The mental health of so many parents is in jeopardy. I dread to think what is happening up and down the country if just my small subsection of friends is anything to go by. We’re falling apart.

I've been saying the same for months.....and I'll go a step further......are we right to vaccinate someone who is 96 for example?

If we didn’t vaccinate the very old, then we’d either be dooming the NHS to continue to have its capacity severely stretched for the foreseeable future, or we’d have to refuse medical treatment to the very elderly on the basis that it was too much trouble and cost, leaving them to die in their homes with no healhcare.

@wanderings I was actually wondering if Boris conference last night to say this variant MAY be more deadly to be a convenient way of keeping compliance? I don’t think people are complying to the same degree as they were last year and I think they know that. I’m not saying it isn’t more easily spread and there are more people in my local hospital than last March, infact I know someone in their late 30s who has just had to have a short stay in hospital because of it but I’m still not going to live my life in fear. I’ve had serious pneumonia at 20 which meant I needed HDU care, that doesn’t happen to young people often but it happened to me. It makes me keep things in perspective

@Dowser

You’re incredulous that you didn’t catch Covid on your flight, but then you answer you own question by saying “.... even though Tenerife had hardly and cases.” The Spanish Government could have waited until it was widespread in Tenerife, and then acted, but then any action would have been too late!

The issue isnt money, its staff levels and bed capacity as a result of that. You cant buy in more doctors and nurses.

Exactly, I’d be interested to know how those who think we’d have been better to use the furlough billions for the NHS think it would help anything... It just seems completely naive to think the Government could have spent their way to the point over 2020 that the NHS would be able to manage the Covid crisis WITHOUT any restrictions being in place.

Perhaps you could ask someone you trust to explain what reductio ad absurdum means?

[quote Pootle40]@MynephewR

There are far too many posts on this and the last thread that I agree with to quote them all. I think that it is inhumane, and really quite sickening, that we keep people alive when their body has given up. Purely because their loved ones would be upset if they died. Death is a part of life, why are people so bloody petrified of it? Whilst I think it's sad for their loved ones when someone in their 90's dies, I don't think of it as a tragedy, as others have said. Good for them that they lived into their old age, many don't get the chance and, again sad as that is, its just the way things are. We are human, not immortal.

I've been saying the same for months.....and I'll go a step further......are we right to vaccinate someone who is 96 for example?[/quote]
@Pootle40 you're going to be called a granny killer very shortly I'm sure, but on questioning whether we should be vaccinating a 96 year old...

People are going to say that vaccinating then is about stopping the pressure on the NHS. Although haven't we been told that ICUs are now full of younger people and the very elderly don't even make it to ICU then how does that work?

I think that in such a dire emergency, there should have been some decisions made about exactly who it was fair to protect. And also, slightly different point, but the government have been heaping the pressure on the public to protect the NHS- well they could have chosen to ensure that nobody else in the UK received a vaccine until ALL frontline NHS staff had received it- to lower the chances of them becoming ill- the number of patients is not the only pressure, having huge numbers of staff catch it doesn't exactly help.

I'll admit now- it really upset me that CEV people of younger ages weren't one of the top priorities too. If you dare suggest it's just not the same impact for a 96 year old to die as a 35 year old, you are called a eugenicist on MN. It's truly astounding to me- I honestly wonder how some people ever managed to function again after the death of a grandparent with some of the bizarre attitudes I see.

My surviving grandparent is early 90s and is so very unwell, in constant pain, can barely move and is very depressed. Just wants it all to be over now. Twice they have called my parents to offer an appointment for a vaccine for him- they wouldn't be able to take them because they are in such pain. Honestly, I don't think it's wrong to say that coronavirus would be a kindness; it is so upsetting to think of the pain they are in, and the impact looking after them is having on my parents health.

I can't understand anyone in that position being vaccinated. Perhaps it's different when you have extremely elderly people who are still in good health.

But I don't care if I'm flamed for this: I hope all the people who think they are so morally superior, who consider it 'eugenics' to suggest that it's not tragic for people die in their 90s, are comfortable with the fact that though it may be small in number, whilst we vaccinate the 90+ (I saw a story of someone 100+), there will be people in their 50s, 60s and younger dying whilst they wait. Young children losing parents.

That was for LastTrainEast.
I meanwhile will ask someone I trust to explain to me how to quote people.

Today, I am not complying. My 60-year-old mum has been slowly dying of cancer for 18 months and is deteriorating swiftly now.

My brother and I had to worry that we could be stopped by the police if we go to her bedside together. I have officially peaked.

"If you say anything against Corona virus, question statistics and test results and the negative effects of lockdown, your a Covidiot and a conspiracy theorist" Correct. That is a fair description of a conspiracy theorist
No its not do you think it's a good idea to never question anything? Do you just blindly believe whatever you're told?

@Derbygerbil and @TwirpingBird
Apparently it takes 1 year to train up a senior nurse to an ICU nurse. So yes, money etc would help. And doesnt take that much time in the great scheme of things.
Obviously then, nurses would need training to be a senior nurse to fill that gap, but you get my drift.

@User2921

Perhaps you could ask someone you trust to explain what reductio ad absurdum means?

Good call.

I'm sorry @Nemostripes I hope you both can spend quality time with your mum without any problems from over zealous suburban stasi types.

Personally if there's no change at Easter to this living hell then I'm going to fuck it

[quote lovelylittlepanda]@wanderings ... did you see the breaking news that in fact the new variant IS more deadly.

Not saying I don't believe the research, but my nudge radar has pinged at the timing of that news. [/quote]
Didn’t Boris himself say it MAY be more deadly. From what I’ve read there isn’t enough evidence yet to confirm this and scientists don’t seem to be able to agree.

Public messaging and the psychology of what to tell the public is a science in itself. Not saying they are lying to us but there is more than one way to deliver that same information depending on how you want the public to respond.

Oh @Nemostripes I'm so sorry for what you're family have been going through. 60 is far too young, I'm so so sorry 💐

I hope you both can spend as much time as possible with your DM.

I thought their was conflicting research as well- some studies show it is no more deadly. So what is the truth?

Is the research peer reviewed etc? I don't know enough about how you can 'trust' the research, but it doesn't actually seem a good idea, for one thing, if it genuinely is more deadly, to present it to the public at a stage when it has not been fully reviewed. It certainly feels like manipulation, giving the timing of so many of the announcements.

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

I understand the point you're making.

I've pointed out that health and social care is already rationed by cost and age. Some seem not to understand or believe that. Yet it's not part of the public debate on Covid.

Curious.

"The issue isn't money, its staff levels and bed capacity as a result of that. You cant buy in more doctors and nurses."

It would be interesting to know more details about the occasional news reports that many retired docs and nurses volunteered to come back and were not recruited (not for the vac programme, but to work, last summer). I've seen a couple of reports suggesting 30-40k volunteered, though there may be some confusion with the vaccination volunteers. Obviously they might be too high risk to work directly with corona patients, but they might have been able to free up other staff. As I say would be interesting to have more information. (Well, I would find it interesting - obviously not everyone agrees as there are few news reports about it!)

Thank you @NinetyNineRedBalloonsGoBy and @StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

It's shit. The NHS has massively failed her. The only reason she's still alive is she had two urgent private surgeries. She'd be dead already if she hadn't have had the money to do so.

I had my first baby last summer too. She's met them twice, while restrictions were lifted and while wearing a mask. I've stayed at home, with PND and PTSD after a traumatic birth, alone. I won't do it anymore. Time with our loved ones is limited. My brother and I will travel together today. He's already had covid, I haven't that I know of, but for now we need each other.

This sort of social isolation takes a devastating toll on some.

@bluetongue you're right, the language was "may", "some evidence", "early data" etc. but the headline grabber is the 30% ...

I'm not mistrusting the scientists, just commenting on the convenience of the timing of the announcement.

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

You and I talk the same language. I concur with everything you say and agree ....the names we would be called by others for voicing these views.........Personally I call it being pragmatic and realistic.

@Nemostripes please please do it. And we'll have a whip round if you're fined (which is jolly unlikely). Enough already.

@LastTrainEast

"DuchessofHastings1" There was a time we didn't even treat infections as we didn't know how all that worked. Some people want to go back to those times and they form little groups of like-minded people arguing against all progress. Fortunately you are vastly outnumbered by those who have embraced knowledge and progress.

I see you are "Sick of terrified people, taking in everything our corrupt media and government say" so you think covid is just in the UK and an invention of the UK government. That's not very promising.

Do you even recognise that cther countries exist? A lot of flat earther types want to phase out countries like Australia as they don't fit into their narrative. Having other countries experiencing covid and lockdowns blows a hole in your claims so it's probably best if you deny their existence entirely.

"If you say anything against Corona virus, question statistics and test results and the negative effects of lockdown, your a Covidiot and a conspiracy theorist" Correct. That is a fair description of a conspiracy theorist.

"Truth, Corona virus kills people, like the many viruses out there. The mean age of death is over 80 and 9 in 10 deaths have underlying health conditions. It has a 99% survival rate" You understand that you just dismissed half a million deaths there in the UK alone if we took your advice. For the whole world that would come to about 70 million deaths and all to save you some inconvenience.

And it may have escaped your notice (Though god knows we're explained it many times) that letting everyone catch it would mean several million in hospital and we don't have the capacity for that. You also forgot the complications experienced by the survivors.

Not your fault. It's because you're not a medical professional but an internet poster.

100 million died in the Spanish flu pandemic and yet the world kept turning and the human race continued.

I don't imagine you've been campaigning and donating your money to prevent the deaths of millions from malaria, TB or other diseases in the developing world. So why now all of a sudden is there this concern that people might die?

The hypocrisy is staggering.

How can you all listen to nurses and doctors pleading that you follow the rules and ease their burdens, and say - no ta. I'm going to have my mates round.

And then still expect people to deliver life saving treatment to you, should you need it for any reason.

Listen to the people on the front line.

Well, I guess some of you won't because you don't believe it. Fine whatever, it has no impact as we are where we are and internet chat will accomplish absolutely nothing. I suppose you all need and want a safe space to vent which is understandable. I shouldn't have interrupted. As you were