Thread 2 - how long will people make these sacrifices

[DappledOliveGroves]

First thread is full.

If anyone has the willpower to continue arguing, please carry on!

I don't get much chance to rebel. I can see the sense in being careful about contact and avoiding poorly ventilated spaces. Back in the summer, I made the most of being able to have social contact outdoors in decent weather, and use nice beer gardens. Not that many people I know were avaluable/ willing to meet up often.

My life is largely organised. When I stopped working, I gradually filled my time with 4 voluntary activities and outdoor fitness. There's not much space to flout.

My little legal pushback is being avaliable for outdoor exercise. I'm low risk to my companions as a Stuck At Home Mum with a stuck at home family. It's that that is saving my sanity at present. I was already floundering back in June when I ended up sobbing on a friend's sofa getting drunk as it was pissing with rain and high risk of hypothermia to do it legally outside.

What does anyone think of this comparison between Florida and California?

V light restrictions in Florida versus severe lockdown in California equaled to the same results.
Also totally different rules re masks.

Apologies for Daily Mail link

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9176263/Florida-California-took-opposite-approaches-COVID-19-ended-outcome.html

After Easter we've surely just got to get on with it. Accept more deaths as part of life.

How does that translate into policy?

@BogRollBOGOF

My observation on masks and behaviour was that in our enforced 2x 20/ 10 minute wait on the school playground, parents were reasonably mindful of keeping a decent distance. When the masks came in, because they were struggling to hear and lip-read, they moved much closer together.

I agree! Here in Spain where people have a custom to kiss twice and talk to your face closely, some people seem to think masks are magic. I even saw two politicians hug on tv, wearing masks, so I guess it's fine..

The thing that I keep coming back to is - while I agree that the entire country shouldn’t be put on hold for any longer than is necessary- is it perhaps the type of death so many are sadly experiencing that is the main issue here?

The thing is, with a death from many other illnesses - pain can be managed outside of a hospital setting which in turn, doesn’t take up a bed.
How do you ‘manage’ the death of someone who can’t breathe? Surely it almost always has to be on a ventilator, in an ICU bed. Anything else would be inhumane, surely?

I’m not an expert by any means. But this is the point I keep coming back to when I feel skeptical about lockdown.

The crap that whatserface up thread posts about conspiracy theorists etc is ridiculous though.

If your attitude to Covid sits on a spectrum - as so many things in life do - one end you have the 5G crazy Covid-denying, anti-vaxxers
What’s the other end of the spectrum?

IMO - it’s the hysterical “we are all going to die and we must bring the army in and lock everyone down until Covid completely disappears, lest one person even get a sniffle” type people.

There are plenty of these people on MN. Just as crazy but for completely the opposite reason. Seems more acceptable to be this way though!

@Wherediditgo

The thing that I keep coming back to is - while I agree that the entire country shouldn’t be put on hold for any longer than is necessary- is it perhaps the type of death so many are sadly experiencing that is the main issue here?

The thing is, with a death from many other illnesses - pain can be managed outside of a hospital setting which in turn, doesn’t take up a bed.
How do you ‘manage’ the death of someone who can’t breathe? Surely it almost always has to be on a ventilator, in an ICU bed. Anything else would be inhumane, surely?

I’m not an expert by any means. But this is the point I keep coming back to when I feel skeptical about lockdown.

@Wherediditgo I agree that people suffering awful deaths is horrible.

But I think there are many people who are completely ignorant of the kinds of deaths that a very large number of people actually experience, because it's obviously not just coronavirus that causes a potentially painful death.

One of my grandparents had a relatively quick death- massive stroke and dead within 12 hours. Two of the others had painful, slow deaths, in one case drawn out over years. My remaining grandparent is so unwell and in constant pain and unable to do much at all, is is gradually getting worse and worse. This has been going on for years now too.

We are absolutely terrible at confronting death in this country, as PP's have said it seems to be the aim of the NHS to keep extremely elderly people alive for as long as possible, without much thought given to what this often means in terms of quality of life, and the kinds of death that people then experience. Long, drawn out, painful deaths. If we could actually becoming more accepting that people do become old and sadly die then we could probably improve the quality of life for their last years and give people a 'better death'. With proper safeguards in place I think that euthanasia should be considered but our MP's wouldn't even allow it to be debated.

With proper safeguards in place I think that euthanasia should be considered

Of course we have to accept death as a part of life, but again, how is that implemented into policy? How is talk about euthanasia, specifically relating to the current crisis, helpful? Do people want to clear up beds by encouraging selfless suicide? Examples keep being brought up about resources being thrown at those who have no quality of life, but how many hospital beds are occupied by malingerers whose relatives are unwilling to commit them to eternity?

@qwertyuser

With proper safeguards in place I think that euthanasia should be considered

Of course we have to accept death as a part of life, but again, how is that implemented into policy? How is talk about euthanasia, specifically relating to the current crisis, helpful? Do people want to clear up beds by encouraging selfless suicide? Examples keep being brought up about resources being thrown at those who have no quality of life, but how many hospital beds are occupied by malingerers whose relatives are unwilling to commit them to eternity?

At what point was I discussing euthanasia solely in relation to coronavirus?

I was responding to the point about coronavirus being an unpleasant death, and making the point that there are many unpleasant deaths that people have to suffer.

And maybe coronavirus feeds into this in the sense that people are started to be confronted with death so much more at the moment- perhaps people ought to consider the kinds of deaths that people suffer all of the time and what we could do to give people a 'better death', as well as what we should be doing to improve the quality of life for people's last years.

But turn it into me just wanting to free up hospital beds if that makes you feel better

Maybe I shouldn’t have picked on your post in particular. But it’s been drip-drip-drip about accepting death, all through the latest threads, and yours was just the latest to mention it, with the bonus of euthanasia (even if that was meant as part of a more general discussion). To answer your last point, no, it doesn’t make me feel better if I’ve been unfair to you.

Strawberrylipstick I agree with your post totally.
And I can see that you aren’t conflating it with the current pandemic. It’s a wider conversation about our attitude to death.

@qwertyuser I think people on this thread are just tired of being called 'granny killers' or heartless or whatever it may be for suggesting that people get old and die. Every comment gets jumped on- and sometimes it really does feel that people are not accepting of death in the elderly which I find bizarre.

I'll be flamed for this I'm sure- but I saw about a 96 year old who who died of coronavirus, and the family were saying she had 'so much to live for'. Look, I get it, I get that of course it's very sad when you lose a relative who you love. It's sad that this virus has cut short the time that people may have had, but even elderly people who look very well are so much more susceptible and likely to die from a whole range of illnesses. I found 'so much to live for' a bit difficult to swallow- my 23 year old cousin who died of cancer had so much to live for and was robbed of an entire adult lifetime of experiences and opportunities. No 96 year old can say they've been robbed of a long life.

I guess we all form our opinions after our own experiences and after witnessing the painful, drawn out deaths of family members, there is no way I want that to happen to me, it terrifies me. But I appreciate others feel differently.

@Wherediditgo I'm not sure about the UK statistics on this, I had a trawl to see but couldn't find it.

But where I'm from, only about 50 percent of all deaths were in hospitals, the rest presumably care homes. Then of the sick people who died in hospital, only about ten percent of them were moved to ICU to die. To me, that seems to signify that 90 percent of all Covid deaths were people at the end of life and/or very ill with something else. Otherwise, surely more of them would be moved to ICU to try and save them?

@nonono1

The line of work I’m in is decimated, we’re selling our home because we can no longer pay the mortgage. Everything was going well before the pandemic hit. I’m fucking done making huge sacrifices for a virus with a death rate of 0.1%.

If even just one government minister were experiencing this - or were trying to home school young children while working - they would have made very, very different decisions.

Other people's families and livelihoods and homes are fine to be chucked on the bonfire, though.

I say this as a lifelong Conservative voter who did not vote Conservative at the last election due to Brexit, and who will never vote Conservative again due to Brexit and lockdowns.

@Feartheescalator

But this isn't just about those dying directly of covid, is it? There are also so many people that will die of cancers that went undiagnosed and other illnesses (physical or mental) that went untreated because hospitals were overwhelmed. That is why we need to do what we can to protect the NHS

I have such a problem with this constant protect the NHS narrative. The hero worship and the way we are expected to whisper in awed tones about how we must protect "our NHS" at all costs.

It isn't up to me or you to save the bloody NHS. It isn't fit for purpose and hasn't been for years. It isn't right of the government to make it my problem. To place the responsibility onto me. To remove freedoms, to decimate businesses, to take education from children all under the guise of protecting the NHS. It's been forced on us and the gullible are parroting the same tired phrases to virtue signal.

@LucilleTheVampireBat bravo. For being brave enough to call it for what it is. Brace yourself!!

I'm braced

As much as I agree that it shouldn't be all up to us to hide away to save the NHS, having grown up in a country where its 60 quid to see a doc, and 100 quid just to turn up to A&E, and the taxes are higher than the UK, the NHS is the greatest thing about the UK to me. Its flawed, it doesnt always function well, but I can access a doc when my kids are sick, when my parents couldn't do that for me. Please, try see how privileged the UK is to have the NHS. You never have to look at your sick child and think "I cant afford a doc, so I just have to cross my fingers". I really cant go back to that.

@LucilleTheVampireBat well said.

The government haven't done all they possibly could to 'protect the NHS'- nobody else should have received a vaccine until frontline NHS staff has theirs.

Never mind PPE contracts to their mates, failed test and trace, I could be here all day writing their failures.

But apparently it's only the public who should be 'protecting the NHS'.

@TwirpingBird I agree with you there- I think the NHS is fantastic in concept, and I believe very much in healthcare at the point of need for all, regardless of wealth.

It's mismanaged, needs looking at from top to bottom, but I very much agree with the principal of it and would love to actually have a government who would prioritise making it fit for purpose in the 21st century.

@wanderings

We are nearly there now. Light at the end of the tunnel. When was it I last heard that? Last June perhaps, in honour of "we can turn this virus around in another twelve weeks"? And another, and another, and another, and another? Then again in September, then again in December? And what will it be this Easter? "Pleeeeeeeeeeeeease be patient for another six years"?

I'm sure the government are monitoring the public mood closely; and at the moment they're thinking "yep, the plebs are happy, they're believing everything we tell them, we can keep throwing more and more bad news at them to keep them depressed and docile, no danger of any riots yet." Hence the drip, drip, drip of lockdown being extended, public saying sadly "yeah".

I'm sure that when it suits the government, they'll swiftly change the now-gloomy narrative to "loooooooooooook!!! The vaccine is working!!!" But as they're so behind the curve with everything, it won't be until long after the mass disobedience has started. What's the point in the vaccine, if it's NOT going make things better? Or is it the government telling it's not going to, to better control public behaviour? Why do we allow our highly paid leaders to gaslight and brainwash us like this?

I'm almost glad about the news of that big wedding being raided: not because the police succeeded in catching them, but evidence that there is some resistance to the brainwashing, and conditioning us to accept all this as "normal".

And again, why are we so obsessed with prolonging life? Wasn't the narrative a few years ago "the world is overpopulated"? At the moment we are being kept alive for an utterly joyless existence, like lab rats. We are born, and we will die: but the bit in the middle is called LIVING. At the moment, we are not allowed to do that, and they keep hinting that this will go on for a long time, while throwing "there is hope" into it.

As for "the government is looking after us": as CS Lewis said, tyrannical regimes in the name of health or safety are worse in a way than those in the name of evil: because the dictators are doing it with the full blessing of their consciences and "it's the right thing to do"; whereas an evil dictator might suddenly be conscience-stricken, and relent.

Totally agree

It’s not climate change that worries me so much as the sheer amount of throw away plastic that suddenly seems to be ok now.

Totally agree. And chemicals. And the judgmental twats doing all this, wiping down shopping with wipes, using disposable masks, whilst bleating about everyone else being “selfish “ are the worst.

Masks are clearly doing fuck all. Cases have done nothing but increase since we had to wear them back in the summer. Even when they told us we had to wear them they said there wasn’t much proof but may make a minimal difference. Now people see them as some kind of panacea even though cases have skyrocketed when we’ve all been wearing them. Totally ridiculous. And the vile ableist rubbish targeted at people who can’t wear them is appalling. Over something that makes no difference. And now we’re fed a lot of shite about a “new variant” as well. All very conveniently timed to keep the masses in order when they looked like they might be getting fed up.

@MadameBlobby

Masks are clearly doing fuck all. Cases have done nothing but increase since we had to wear them back in the summer. Even when they told us we had to wear them they said there wasn’t much proof but may make a minimal difference. Now people see them as some kind of panacea even though cases have skyrocketed when we’ve all been wearing them. Totally ridiculous. And the vile ableist rubbish targeted at people who can’t wear them is appalling. Over something that makes no difference. And now we’re fed a lot of shite about a “new variant” as well. All very conveniently timed to keep the masses in order when they looked like they might be getting fed up.

totally agree.