Thread 2 - how long will people make these sacrifices

[DappledOliveGroves]

First thread is full.

If anyone has the willpower to continue arguing, please carry on!

"I know what you mean, and I think everyone has their own cut off point.
Generally its when discomfort from the sacrifice outweighs the feel good factor from doing 'the right thing'." (quote from above)

which is why no-one is actually prepared to do anything about climate change, because it means doing less, flying less, travelling less, having less. The first lockdown showed that this does make a difference, but no-one actually wants to continue to live like that, regardless of the world handed on to the allegedly so-precious kids. Much easier to play truant once a week and blubber on instagram.

human beings (Especially us entitled developed world types) don't like it when the facts don't suit us. As this thread proves.

@TwirpingBird

I went to the playground this morning and spoke to 2 other adults. It was the highlight of my month. I was on a high. I havent had a conversation with another adult bar DH in 3 weeks.

I told my mother who told me off for taking a risk with my DD. She told me I have to 'keep going' at home on my own every day and I am 'torturing myself' by worrying about locking DD away from the world when I can do 'nothing about it'.

The world has gone mad. Life isnt worth living like this.

I make it my absolute duty to speak to anyone I come into contact when in our shopping centre, from the homeless man at the opening, who always gets something especially now as there is less of a foot fall, to the assistants on the tills.

It’s lovely to chat to someone apart from my dh.
I hope they appreciate it too. Well judging from the way they enjoy chatting back, I can’t be making too much of a nuisance of myself.

I want humanity to return.

When this is a distant memory and masks are consigned to the dustbin of history , I’m sure we will remember that we kept each other going and if they really don’t want to be there, I hope a bit of chit chat makes their day that bit pleasanter.

@murbblurb

"I know what you mean, and I think everyone has their own cut off point. Generally its when discomfort from the sacrifice outweighs the feel good factor from doing 'the right thing'." (quote from above)

which is why no-one is actually prepared to do anything about climate change, because it means doing less, flying less, travelling less, having less. The first lockdown showed that this does make a difference, but no-one actually wants to continue to live like that, regardless of the world handed on to the allegedly so-precious kids. Much easier to play truant once a week and blubber on instagram.

human beings (Especially us entitled developed world types) don't like it when the facts don't suit us. As this thread proves.

It’s not climate change that worries me so much as the sheer amount of throw away plastic that suddenly seems to be ok now.

Oh dear @DameFanny, our whole delightful exchange on here started because you misinterpreted me!

Remember comparing me to a load of right wing wankers? (Because anyone anti lockdown is obviously a right wing nutter).

Bit late for you to try and take the moral high road now, but nice try!

I agree with the points being made on here about deaths from pollution, smoking, fast fashion, poverty etc being ignored.

I think covid is different because of self interest. Some people are terrified it will affect them or their loved ones. And if they are having a favourable or bearable lockdown, it benefits them to maintain the status quo. There are undoubtedly some selfless caring people out there, but probably not the vast majority. But many lockdown supporters site “the greater good” and saving others lives as their reason for caring.

Another factor is the media. Worldwide covid has been massively hyped up. I really think the media kind of pressured us into lockdown, and that the media has far too much control over our social narrative.

During the first lockdown you couldn’t log onto social media without being bombarded with preachy save lives posts. The pro lockdown narrative quickly became the only acceptable one.

Once this is all over I think as a society we should address the control exerted over us by the small minority of leading newspapers and social media platforms.

By the way we were told not to wear masks at the beginning because there weren't any for public use, they needed them for healthcare professionals. Not because they weren't effective.

Somebody's been telling porky pies then

www.standard.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-face-mask-rule-changes-timeline-a4533531.html

Meanwhile, Professor Jonathan Van-Tam, the UK’s deputy chief medical officer, reiterates on April 4 that wearing of face masks by those who are not sick is not recommended by the British Government. He says there is “no evidence that general wearing of face masks by the public who are well affects the spread of the disease in our society”

Interesting that the narrative is starting (finally) to change. I said a few weeks ago that no one cared about malaria deaths (for example) in developing counties but when a diseases kills white westerners it's suddenly a different story.

After Easter we've surely just got to get on with it. Accept more deaths as part of life.

I said you were using the same language as right wing wankers @Someonetookmyname. And if by misinterpreting, you mean taking your words at their usual meaning then perhaps I did

There is a limit as to how long people will sacrifice their lives for strangers.

This seems pertinent to the overall mood of the thread www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/23/gary-matthews-duped-by-lying-anti-vaxxers-his-death-is-at-their-door?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

But this isn't just about those dying directly of covid, is it? There are also so many people that will die of cancers that went undiagnosed and other illnesses (physical or mental) that went untreated because hospitals were overwhelmed. That is why we need to do what we can to protect the NHS

That Nick Cohen article is irritating the shit out of me because he described Gary Matthews as a self taught artist, when he did in fact have a BA Hons in Fine Art (misses point)

@Feartheescalator

Yes we need to protect the nhs but for how long?

Would you support us being locked down next winter, or how about in three years time?

For me personally the cut off is the elderly and vulnerable getting their jabs.

walrus the textile industry website link you posted is very grim. I don’t know what the answer is to it all, or to the covid lockdown issue. I swing between extremes.

@Mouldiwarp1

I didn’t read the whole of the other thread (and forgive me if these have been answered) but some things interest me. While I can understand people’s frustrations, I’m not sure I understand, for instance, “The life of a young person is, in my eyes, more valuable than that of someone in their 80s or 90s.” How do you make such a judgement? Valuable to who? Let’s face it, most of us don’t do anything amazingly wonderful with our lives, we don’t end poverty or disease. We really don’t contribute to society as a whole - we just potter along. In fact, some young people are truly evil. Why is someone’s life more important based purely on their age? The new American president is 78, he’s spent 50 odd years in public service and, whether or not you agree with his politics, I bet he’s contributed more to society than the vast majority of posters on this thread.

I also don’t really understand people saying they’re not going to do ‘it’ anymore, they want their children to have a normal life. While I understand this, I’m rather confused as to how people think that’s actually going to happen when teachers (understandably) seem to be a little reluctant to go back to working as usual when they might catch this pesky virus.

Even if people won’t make the sacrifices anymore and rebel, I don’t see how life is going to miraculously go back to normal. The shops will still be closed, cinemas and theatres won’t suddenly reopen - many in these areas are older (actors tend not to retire).

Personally, although I miss my friends and family, I’d rather wait a bit longer and give the vaccines a proper chance.

Disclaimer: I don’t even have a BA, let alone an MA and LLP. I can only do the quick crossword in The Times, not the cryptic (although I know practice helps). I do have a daughter in her first year of uni, living alone in a strange city where she didn’t know anyone. She’s coping okay - I am very proud of her.

A life of any child is immensely more valuable to the human race than a life of any 80-90 year old. If you need this explained to you, you must be an alien and this is your first day on Earth. You can apply the same rule gradually to any age in between infancy and old age. We have all diminished our existence for a whole year in order to save the old (the younger deaths are rare, however you look at it). Did the 80-90 yo people asked to be "saved" by isolation? Do they actually want to spend what could be the last year of their lives locked up without seeing their family? This whole situation is absurd. Ppoliticians don't want overcrowded hospitals that would have to turn some patients away. It will not get them any votes. But investing in more hospitals? "Oh no, too complicated, after all we are only here for 4 years, we're not here to think long term. Let's just do the lockdown again. After all, the whole world is doing it."

I’m taking the vaccine as soon as I can

@wanderings

We are nearly there now. Light at the end of the tunnel. When was it I last heard that? Last June perhaps, in honour of "we can turn this virus around in another twelve weeks"? And another, and another, and another, and another? Then again in September, then again in December? And what will it be this Easter? "Pleeeeeeeeeeeeease be patient for another six years"?

I'm sure the government are monitoring the public mood closely; and at the moment they're thinking "yep, the plebs are happy, they're believing everything we tell them, we can keep throwing more and more bad news at them to keep them depressed and docile, no danger of any riots yet." Hence the drip, drip, drip of lockdown being extended, public saying sadly "yeah".

I'm sure that when it suits the government, they'll swiftly change the now-gloomy narrative to "loooooooooooook!!! The vaccine is working!!!" But as they're so behind the curve with everything, it won't be until long after the mass disobedience has started. What's the point in the vaccine, if it's NOT going make things better? Or is it the government telling it's not going to, to better control public behaviour? Why do we allow our highly paid leaders to gaslight and brainwash us like this?

I'm almost glad about the news of that big wedding being raided: not because the police succeeded in catching them, but evidence that there is some resistance to the brainwashing, and conditioning us to accept all this as "normal".

And again, why are we so obsessed with prolonging life? Wasn't the narrative a few years ago "the world is overpopulated"? At the moment we are being kept alive for an utterly joyless existence, like lab rats. We are born, and we will die: but the bit in the middle is called LIVING. At the moment, we are not allowed to do that, and they keep hinting that this will go on for a long time, while throwing "there is hope" into it.

As for "the government is looking after us": as CS Lewis said, tyrannical regimes in the name of health or safety are worse in a way than those in the name of evil: because the dictators are doing it with the full blessing of their consciences and "it's the right thing to do"; whereas an evil dictator might suddenly be conscience-stricken, and relent.

This

For all the people comparing lockdown with wars, you really have no idea what you're talking about. I'm early forties, but I've been through a war unfortunatelly. When the bombs are falling, nobody needs to tell you to stay home or hide. You know what to do. If this was a really dangerous disease, like sars or ebola, nobody would have to tell us what to do. And there would be no one wanting to send their children to school. The fact they have to brainwash us and forbid and fine us in order to make us stay home really says everything about this whole absurd situation. It is crazy.

@juliastone

For all the people comparing lockdown with wars, you really have no idea what you're talking about. I'm early forties, but I've been through a war unfortunatelly. When the bombs are falling, nobody needs to tell you to stay home or hide. You know what to do. If this was a really dangerous disease, like sars or ebola, nobody would have to tell us what to do. And there would be no one wanting to send their children to school. The fact they have to brainwash us and forbid and fine us in order to make us stay home really says everything about this whole absurd situation. It is crazy.

Wow..what an excellent point. Absolutely spot on and I’ve never forgotten that the government downgraded covid on March 19 on their website.

And numbers were goin* down before Boris introduced the masks
Since the introduction of masks, numbers have risen again.

Well it could be coincidence 🤫

When we went through my Great-Grandma's possessions, a letter turned up. My Grandma was vaugely aware of this letter regarding her uncle who died age 21 on the Burma Railway. The uncle and his friend made a pact that if one of them did not survive the war, they would write to their friend's family. I read the letter out loud, as the tears began to flow and my grandma let out an anguished sob and left the room, grieving for the uncle who never had chance to meet her, but was so proud to be an uncle and kept a photo of his baby niece on him for as long as he could. But in that barbaric existance that they were forced to endure, it was companionship that helped to keep them surviving as long as they could and helped one to live until he could return home to Europe.

My Great Grandma and infant Grandma travelled around the UK to follow her family. For a couple of years she followed her hysband, then settled with her mother and sister. I say settled, they were bombed out twice, but they stayed together for support through the chaos.

My Great Grandfather committed suicide in the 1960s due to the psychological and physical impacts of his war years, and not before a lot of generational trauma was passed on, still feeling felt by family members.

This is fuck-all like WW2.

The damage is different. But the pain and damage caused by both events are valid in their own ways.

Lockdown harms people. Not all people are safe at home. Not all people have their needs met at home.

I agree with the points being made on here about deaths from pollution, smoking, fast fashion, poverty etc being ignored

You forgot obesity and its risk to health, which there's a separate thread running about

Back in the spring, countless posters were saying the Covid worry was the spur they needed to definitely lose weight - only now many (sometimes the same ones) are simply telling the OP to ^fck off

Odd that ...

@Dowser

And numbers were goin* down before Boris introduced the masks Since the introduction of masks, numbers have risen again.

Well it could be coincidence 🤫

My observation on masks and behaviour was that in our enforced 2x 20/ 10 minute wait on the school playground, parents were reasonably mindful of keeping a decent distance. When the masks came in, because they were struggling to hear and lip-read, they moved much closer together.

That is one of my hills worth dying on. For a multitude of complex reasons I have issues both wearing face coverings and interracting with people wearing them. I draw the line at wearing a totally ineffective visor in an outdoor space and stand there with my face steaming up as a token gesture of complience. I do it in a supermarket to fend off arseholes until the point of sensory meltdown/ panic attack takes over.