How long will people agree to make these sacrifices for?

[DappledOliveGroves]

Inspired by another thread here.

Let's assume the vaccines don't do what they should - either because the virus mutates so rapidly or because our government can't manage to adhere to Pfizer's protocol and a lone dose does nothing to protect people.

Then what?

For all those champing at the bit for curfews, harsher lockdowns, further restrictions on civil liberties - I'm genuinely curious - how long are you willing to maintain this status quo?

Would you be happy to still be in this lockdown in a year? Two years? Five years? Even if the lockdowns are eased and clamped down again, would you be willing to accept rolling lockdowns as a fact of life with no end in sight? At what point would those wanting tougher restrictions decide they can't live like this anymore?

I can see people on facebook saying "From March I'm not doing it no more."

It's insanity. People are getting vaccinated. It's only a matter of time now before things are relatively safe again. But yeah, you exert your "rights" to go out, do what you want, and possibly be among the last wave of the dying while the rest of us are making plans to get back to normality

'A load of vaccines have been created that are being given to those most at risk of getting seriously ill from covid.'

'Until all those at risk have been vaccinated, the government would obviously like to minimise the spread of the disease.'

'Can someone please tell me what is unreasonable about that?'

Quite. The gist seems to be people die in Africa and no one cares plus a retired gp told the op the vaccines may not work, as if he'd have any idea, so the flouters/hysterics seems to think this is life for the next 5years not the next few weeks. All seeming to forget that from July until late Sep many (not all) had lighter restrictions anyway.

“ To all of you that want to protest - go on then do it stop moaning on here and get on with it. What do you actually think you will achieve? Obviously you will spread the virus around a bit more and add to the numbers in hospital already. You will stretch an overworked police force but go on stamp your feet and do it. We have done particularly badly in this country and other countries have done much better at keeping infections down but you go stamp your feet, protest and add to the infection numbers. It won't open the hospital to cancer care any quicker, it won't open the schools any quicker it won't open the shops any quicker but if it makes you feel better then go on do it....”
Totally agree with this , Also comparing riots for poll tax to riots over lockdowns .🤔which are in place to bring death rates down , and stop nhs being overwhelmed so people with problems other then COVID can be seen . Really can’t compare the two things myself. Boris and his team didn’t create this virus ! You don’t think everyone is affected in someway by these measures I can tell you they are but for people who are just going to crack on and have family over by March regardless , you do you, if you catch it or family member catches it that’s your risk you play Russian roulette . Do it , do your protests as pp said stop moaning on here . If you are unfortunate to catch it instead of needing are shit nhs you can sweat it out at home .

@MarshaBradyo yeah. I guess what I'm saying is that we don't actually know that lockdowns are the only way. They're much less bad in the short term than presiding over huge numbers or deaths, but that's the reason the government wants them. They can spend our money to lull us into a false sense of security. It's false becaaue I think exactly the same amount of rule breaking (of the serious kind, I. E. Big parties and not isolating) is happening as would be happening in a voluntary scenario. Ah what do I know really!

@BuntysTwinkle

I can see people on facebook saying "From March I'm not doing it no more."

It's insanity. People are getting vaccinated. It's only a matter of time now before things are relatively safe again. But yeah, you exert your "rights" to go out, do what you want, and possibly be among the last wave of the dying while the rest of us are making plans to get back to normality

I would never use such appalling grammar 😂😂

It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic that people who have continued to mix as they please are the first on fb to be so very shocked that they've caught a highly infectious disease.. by mixing as they please.

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'A load of vaccines have been created that are being given to those most at risk of getting seriously ill from covid.'

'Until all those at risk have been vaccinated, the government would obviously like to minimise the spread of the disease.'

'Can someone please tell me what is unreasonable about that?'

Quite. The gist seems to be people die in Africa and no one cares plus a retired gp told the op the vaccines may not work, as if he'd have any idea, so the flouters/hysterics seems to think this is life for the next 5years not the next few weeks. All seeming to forget that from July until late Sep many (not all) had lighter restrictions anyway.

READ THE OP

@GetOffYourHighHorse

It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic that people who have continued to mix as they please are the first on fb to be so very shocked that they've caught a highly infectious disease.. by mixing as they please.

You know some odd people

@DappledOliveGroves

thank you. Thank you for saying everything I am not brave enough to say. I am also note prepared to make any more sacrifices for the NHS, the elderly and the vulnerable beyond the vaccination tipping point. My kids are fucking vulnerable - or they will be if they don't get back to school. I am going to be fucking vulnerable if I don't get to start living my life again. You will have a whole nation of fit, young, healthy people in their prime of their life slowly losing their will to live. Enough of the sacrifice.

So thank you. I completely agree with everything you have said.

I wii continue following the rules after needing A&E yesterday when my dad suffered his second stroke and making the the decision to drive him as to wait for ambulance he could be dead , like we did 2 weeks ago when he had TIA and they rang me after 50 mins to say they couldn’t make it luckily that wasn’t as bad as this one . They were brilliant with him got him all treatment he needed and quickly even with a code blue going on when we arrived . So yes personally I want that service available to anyone who may need.

Life is awful for the elderly. Imagine a serial killer that is invisible that could murder you at any time- that is Coronavirus to the elderly. I have endless sympathy for how lost and scared some must be, particularly when life is so abnormal- all the normal support structures have been removed. That said, I am nearing the end of my tether with home working and homeschooling and what seems like a jail sentence. Hopefully the vaccine will work and we can get back to normal. I wish that the papers would stop scaremongering though- it’s like torture. Yesterday’s DM headline “lockdown could last until summer” followed by the explanation that the government couldn’t rule out longer restrictions caused me to spiral, even though I know it’s blatant scaremongering. I don’t plan to break any rules or riot but then I’m a middle aged woman who wasn’t out clubbing anyway. For the young, it must be hell. I think this lockdown needs to end soon for the good of the younger generation.

@GetOffYourHighHorse

It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic that people who have continued to mix as they please are the first on fb to be so very shocked that they've caught a highly infectious disease.. by mixing as they please.

I don't have any such people on my FB feed. Maybe you should get more intelligent friends?

'am also note prepared to make any more sacrifices for the NHS, the elderly and the vulnerable beyond the vaccination tipping point. My kids are fucking vulnerable - or they will be if they don't get back to school. I am going to be fucking vulnerable if I don't get to start living my life again. You will have a whole nation of fit, young, healthy people in their prime of their life slowly losing their will to live. '

We know kids need to get back to school, if you watched press conferences you would know it is a priority.

Of course there will be mh problems but there will be whatever we do. Adapt, compromise. For the trillionth time we aren't protecting vulnerable people or anyone over 50 because they are more important, rather than those at higher risk are more likely to need a critical care bed. As we are seeing if its happens in the thousands there is little capacity for others. Your 'fucking vulnerable kids' or other loved ones may not have access to emergency or critical care if they sadly needed it. Got it?

Adapt, compromise.

Get off your high horse.

I think Easter will be the tipping point. I have 3 teenagers, there is no way they are going to stay locked in the house through the whole Easter holiday, particularly as they and most of their friends have had Covid.

We are about to run out of room on this thread, and not a single one of you has answered my question about the alternative.

Says it all really.

I agree @Vargas . I will definitely be letting my DS see his friends at Easter, if not before if numbers continue to go down. By that stage my DPs will have had their second vaccine and 3 a month for it to take effect, so we'll also be seeing my DPs.

@Perfect28

So, a thought experiment then

Let's say OK, lockdowns aren't worth it. The cost is too high, let's open up.

Then what?
Either- hospitals can't cope. They collapse as more staff quit or go off with stress or covid. Buildings are completely overrun. Nobody gets healthcare at all, including maternity care, cancer care, emergency care, all of it. It all collapses. Eventually we might work out a different system but in the short to medium (and possibly long) term there is a national medical emergency. Millions die. Millions more suffer.

Or

Hospitals don't admit covid patients do reduce the risk of being overrun and to protect other services. People suffer and die en mass in their homes, with no care at all.

Or

Is there a third option? What is it? And if not would you prefer option a or option b?

Or

Am I being melodramatic and actually cases and deaths would reduce even without lockdown measures and everything would be fine?

I think you should start a new thread with this.

'We are about to run out of room on this thread, and not a single one of you has answered my question about the alternative.'

Their alternative is to do as they like. Ignore everything else. Let it spread who cares, let hospitals continue to be full of patients sadly suffering horribly with covid, keep routine surgery postponed, keep cancer treatment delayed. As long as they get to hug their nan and their bubz can go and play that's all that matters.

@Perfect28 I don't think a single person has said that restrictions should be lifted right now, leading to NHS being overwhelmed. If they have forgive me as I missed it.

But I certainly don't have desire to do this for any longer than I need to. So if the argument changes to we don't want younger people to end up in ICU (provided there is space) or getting long covid then I'm out.

Haha perhaps. Likely will get radio silence as I have here.

@rookiemere The OP explicitly stated they don't care what happens to infection rates or deaths.

I'm aware many more posters have a more nuanced view. The question is poised as a thought experiment to those who believe that lockdown has gone far enough/ the balance of harm has tipped too far in one direction at the cost of MH, education, social lives, human rights. etc.

'But I certainly don't have desire to do this for any longer than I need to'

Well yes, who does 'desire to do this any longer than needed'. It's not for fun you know. However mumsnetters with their posts about protests and doing wtf they like don't get to decide when it stops.

Let's leave it to scientists, PHE and politicians who actually have the data, hmm?

[quote Australia77]@DappledOliveGroves

thank you. Thank you for saying everything I am not brave enough to say. I am also note prepared to make any more sacrifices for the NHS, the elderly and the vulnerable beyond the vaccination tipping point. My kids are fucking vulnerable - or they will be if they don't get back to school. I am going to be fucking vulnerable if I don't get to start living my life again. You will have a whole nation of fit, young, healthy people in their prime of their life slowly losing their will to live. Enough of the sacrifice.

So thank you. I completely agree with everything you have said.[/quote]
Again this idea that we are being asked to make sacrifices for "someone else " - "the elderly" / "the NHS". The idea that some how this all impacts someone else.

@Australia77 these sacrifices we are all making are also for the benefit of YOU and YOUR family.

What if you and your family god forbid have an RTA but we live in an an alternative world where there is no lockdown, the NHS is unable to cope, A and E is full and you can't be treated properly?

What if you get covid seriously and can't get the help you need?

Then you would feel cross with the state for failing to ensure the continuity of essential emergency medicine services. You'd be justified too.

People are fed up and cross with restrictions. But they would be a hell of a lot more upset and outraged if the NHS were leaving emergencies untreated and people were dying at the roadside or at home in agony. It would be a National scandal and riots in the streets.

That is why the government - and let's remember Johnson is after all notoriously libertarian and hardly a Trotskyite! - is taking the approach it is taking. They know that to do otherwise would be a hell of a lot more unpopular.

Agreed, I don't think anyone wants this to continue for longer than it needs to!