How long will people agree to make these sacrifices for?

[DappledOliveGroves]

Inspired by another thread here.

Let's assume the vaccines don't do what they should - either because the virus mutates so rapidly or because our government can't manage to adhere to Pfizer's protocol and a lone dose does nothing to protect people.

Then what?

For all those champing at the bit for curfews, harsher lockdowns, further restrictions on civil liberties - I'm genuinely curious - how long are you willing to maintain this status quo?

Would you be happy to still be in this lockdown in a year? Two years? Five years? Even if the lockdowns are eased and clamped down again, would you be willing to accept rolling lockdowns as a fact of life with no end in sight? At what point would those wanting tougher restrictions decide they can't live like this anymore?

[quote Perfect28]@strawberrylipstickstateofmind

There is actual concrete evidence of deaths. 'increased suicide rates' are speculative. Mental health is extremely important but actually living has to take priority over mental health, surely you agree? If suicide rates were comparable with, or exceeding covid deaths and that was evidenced then yes, you may have an argument. Until then, no.[/quote]
Do you really think that the true numbers of suicides that a occur as a direct result of the pandemic are happening already?

It's only a year in. Of course they haven't. If lockdown were lifted tomorrow, there are some people who have been so badly affected mentally as a result of this, that they are going to suffer regardless. And if it continues, the number of these people will grow. And the people who are losing their jobs, homes now, the people who are struggling with the social isolation, the inability to even begin a new relationship legally ffs, are going to be the ones who after struggling on for a couple of years, and then break. And the longer this continues, the greater number of them there will be. The true effect on people's mental health and the suicide rate will be seen in the coming 2 years, 5 years, decade.

@TiersBeforeBedtime

I keep on being astonished by way in which the NHS - sorry, "our" NHS (adopts the accepted expression which is a cross between reverence and sanctimoniousness) - has become the only remaining God.

In fact, it's a system like any other, and it doesn't work. It hasn't worked for goodness knows how long. It was a good idea at the time - but, like most good ideas, it has long outgrown its original remit.

If it is unable to cope with sick people - meaning that we all have to have our basic freedoms curtailed in a vicious and inhumane manner - then it ought to be comprehensively dismantled, and a different system needs to take its place.

iv thought this for ages too , trouble is would be if any whiff of the goverment actually changing it got out , there would be an outcry most likely the elderly whinging about how they have paid into it all their lives and amongst the low income , the latter of which im one , but i can see it just does not bloody work the way it is and id be happy to pay into a system or some kind or affordable insurance to have a system that actually did

There's a programme on tonight called "Care Homes - The Long Year Alone". BBC News have just shown a short clip of it.

An elderly woman with alzheimers being given anti psychosis medication to help ease her anxiety over lockdown. Her daughter singing to her through the living room window. The daughter has just now been allowed to physically be with her mum, because she is now dieing. The last year of her life has been stolen from her to save the NHS. How anyone could support this is beyond me. It's absolutely barbaric.

@DappledOliveGroves

Riots and civil protests can and do work. The poll tax went away. Ceasescu and other dictators have been toppled. Civil disobedience is a clear way of effecting change.

I suppose one thing that will emerge from this farce is the provision of such much sociological and psychological data about human reactions to this. Who complies, who rebels?

i will wait until the vaccines are done , then if this goverment keep up with the restrictions and or lockdowns under a host of excuses about new strains , immunity and any other crap , then i will be happy to take part in a protest or 5 , iv really just about had enough with it , but il hold on for now , but after this years done thats it i wont be complying in any way shape or form

@LucilleTheVampireBat

There's a programme on tonight called "Care Homes - The Long Year Alone". BBC News have just shown a short clip of it.

An elderly woman with alzheimers being given anti psychosis medication to help ease her anxiety over lockdown. Her daughter singing to her through the living room window. The daughter has just now been allowed to physically be with her mum, because she is now dieing. The last year of her life has been stolen from her to save the NHS. How anyone could support this is beyond me. It's absolutely barbaric.

You want barbaric - my mother is in a dementia care home. She's 81. When the first wave hit, they LOCKED the residents in their rooms for 3 weeks. People with no understanding, no idea of what was going on, banging to get out. Apparently this is preferable to them catching Covid and potentially dying. Five died anyway.

I'd love someone to tell me that this was in her best interests.

Going off on a tangent here but in the future, when the Government decides on a day to remember the victims of the Pandemic and most probably a ribbon of some kind, I really hope we don't get future generations shaming those who chose not to wear one or choose to remember it quietly, or shouting about how their great grandparent gave their life working as a key worker(!).

Every Rememberance day, when veterans are interviewed on the telly, they all say the same thing: "wear the poppy/ don't wear the poppy, observe the silence/ don't observe it, all we want is this never ever to happen again. Don't call us heroes, we had no choice." So with this in mind, I sincerely hope lessons are learnt so that such a catastrophic response to a Pandemic never happens on this soil again. Also might be worth telling our grandkids not to shout about whose relative did what, we all suffered.

All this deciding how long you'll comply for - listen to yourselves, it's not your decision. And those downplaying Covid or suggesting it would be a quicker death than something else, maybe you should have a chat with Kate Garraway.

@ConfusedcomMum

Going off on a tangent here but in the future, when the Government decides on a day to remember the victims of the Pandemic and most probably a ribbon of some kind, I really hope we don't get future generations shaming those who chose not to wear one or choose to remember it quietly, or shouting about how their great grandparent gave their life working as a key worker(!).

Every Rememberance day, when veterans are interviewed on the telly, they all say the same thing: "wear the poppy/ don't wear the poppy, observe the silence/ don't observe it, all we want is this never ever to happen again. Don't call us heroes, we had no choice." So with this in mind, I sincerely hope lessons are learnt so that such a catastrophic response to a Pandemic never happens on this soil again. Also might be worth telling our grandkids not to shout about whose relative did what, we all suffered.

Oh we will. Let's be honest people were shamed if they didn't take part in the bloody clap on a Thursday night!

Someone on another thread mentioned that they still aren't allowed to see their own father in his care home even though he's had both vaccines wtf. So when can we actually see loved ones ? Many of the elderly people we are not seeing to 'protect' likely don't have many years left, so why sacrifice a whole year without them ? Time is very precious.

@CorianderBee - I'm not sure about your maths. It's been 10 months and you've made it 3 years.

Elderly patients with Dementia are quite often given anti psychotics because of their agitation ,promazine was prescribed to most of the patients on the Dementia care ward I worked on ,sadly Alzheimer's and other forms of Dementia can cause severe agitation ,I agree it's horrific that relatives haven't been able to visit but everybody needs to be protected

@Donotdelete - of course we're not the only country still in lockdown!

@TwirpingBird

If another person says kids are 'resilient' I may scream. We can acknowledge this is having a major detrimental effect on the mental health of adults. Imagine if we all just told everyone who is struggling that 'oh your feelings arent real. You are resiliant'. My kids are suffering. I refuse to put them through this indefinitely. Anyone who thinks I should has lost their decency, or their brains.

Absolutely. If the lockdown isn’t hard enough, being expected to pretend it’s having no effect on my child (or that any effect is down to my poor parenting) is almost harder.

I think there have been so many mistakes but a big part of the problem is society’s inability to talk about, and accept death as a part of life. Lets face it, any one of us could die tomorrow from sudden illness or accident. All deaths are a tragedy, but they are also part of life. We will all die of something.
However the impact of lockdown is horrendous and unnatural. The toll it’s taking on people's mental health is unreal. Our mental health services are overwhelmed now , yet no one wants to talk about that.

The impact on kids and young adults will be long lasting, not to mention the fact that they will be paying for the destroyed economy for their whole lives.
Sweden did not lock down, their deaths are no worse than ours, but they still have an economy, and a society.

We can’t just keep on locking down. We need to know when things are going to be eased off, and once a critical mass of vulnerable people have been vaccinated we need to let people live their lives again.

And finally I’ve seen lots of people die through work, generally older people often frail and with dementia. The vast majority due to pneumonia with underlying conditions being the driver for them developing this. It’s surprising how many die completely peacefully, even without having had any medications. Vast majority will drop oxygen levels, making them sleepy and then unconscious and will die within a few days. As far as modes of dying go, it’s really not a bad way to go. Certainly preferable to dying of cancer with a protracted, painful death with symptoms sometimes difficult to control

If suicide rates were comparable with, or exceeding covid deaths and that was evidenced then yes, you may have an argument

I thought it was usually said on here that "it's not a race to the bottom"?

Worth remembering, too, that MH has been the Cinderalla of NHS provision for years - which is why I grimace when someone who's not coping very well is told to "get help with that"

What help???

@DappledOliveGroves @Honeyhoops - you do realise that every interaction and infringement impacts us all. So you're pleading yourselves at our risk. Selfish.

@strawberrylipstickstateofmind

Are you really saying you believe that suicide rates because of the pandemic, over and above what they already average, are going to equate to the numbers dying with covid? And again my point stands, I'm not taking your predictions and suspicions over actual, proveable and calculatable facts.

[quote DappledOliveGroves]@LastTrainEast please do explain as I genuinely do not follow.

Why would there be no water, food etc? One third of Covid patients are asymptomatic - they would presumably still go out to work and supply chains would still run.

Spanish flu had a mortality rate of around 10% and cities were overwhelmed - but even then everything didn't come to a grinding halt, even when bodies were stacking up and carts going house to house to collect the dead. [/quote]
Well water comes from the sky but to get it from there to your taps involves a lot of people working. If they can't because they are sick you will have no water. Same for those other services. They also can't go to work if they must stay home to look after their children because the schools are shut.
They can't go to work unless there is a functioning public transport service or a supply of fuel and people to maintain their car which means trucks/trains and people to manufacture, pack and distribute all of that.
They can't go to work unless they can rely on there being law and order which means the police/courts must continue to function and so on for the fire dept etc.

Society is complex and you need nearly all of it working at the same time. Even your phone and broadband rely on people keeping it running and it must be kept running for everything else to work.

Additionally you expect those not yet sick to keep working even though though their risk is greater because DappledOliveGroves really can't be bothered with all this inconvenience.

You don't care about keeping the NHS going for those same workers when they get sick so what happens to them then?

Decisions are being made which you don't like by people who have a clearer idea of how the world works.

@Donotdelete

We are the ONLY country still in lockdown. Despite never really locking down, America’s death rate is comparable to our own. I wonder this as I read the paper which tells me that “England is leading the world”. I am sure that all the other countries are laughing at us being the only failure still in lockdown whilst bragging we are the best. It seems as if they are taking perverse pleasure in making us suffer at this moment.

I am sure that all the other countries are laughing at us if they are reading people posting stuff like this.

Donotdelete you can write fanfic about the pandemic later when it's over and make up any details you like, but it might confuse people now who think you're talking about the real world.

@LastTrainEast I don't buy any of that. Millions of us have worked throughout the pandemic and the world has kept turning. Given the level of infections now, by your logic, we should expect massive shortages, failed supply chains, blackouts, no bin collection, no water. But it hasn't happened. And I can't see, with a pandemic where so many are asymptomatic and where millions have already had Covid, that there's any prospect of it happening.

@LastTrainEast lots of places have not Locke down and horrific covid rates and overwhelmed health services. Have any experienced the consequences you describe? I gave the example of Florida upthread.

I support the lockdown due to saving lives pending vaccine rollout, I just want to see a bit more evidence that society would implode entirely without it.

@dappledolivegroves

Your arguments are so flawed I'm surprised you can't see it yourself.

You're telling me that services haven't become overwhelmed but you're also complaining about all of the lockdowns. Can you see any correlation between the two or?

[quote Perfect28]@dappledolivegroves

Your arguments are so flawed I'm surprised you can't see it yourself.

You're telling me that services haven't become overwhelmed but you're also complaining about all of the lockdowns. Can you see any correlation between the two or?
[/quote]
I appreciate the NHS is struggling. What I haven't seen evidence of is the remainder of society being overwhelmed as a result of illness.

People are making the assumption that most of the population would be ill at the same time and society would implode.

This wouldn’t happen. There’re some natural immunity. Many have had it. Vaccines. Then summer. One third of cases are asymptomatic. The fact that many only get it mildly.

Takes as long as it takes, 1 year/5 year/ 10 year/ forever, it is what it is.