How long will people agree to make these sacrifices for?

[DappledOliveGroves]

Inspired by another thread here.

Let's assume the vaccines don't do what they should - either because the virus mutates so rapidly or because our government can't manage to adhere to Pfizer's protocol and a lone dose does nothing to protect people.

Then what?

For all those champing at the bit for curfews, harsher lockdowns, further restrictions on civil liberties - I'm genuinely curious - how long are you willing to maintain this status quo?

Would you be happy to still be in this lockdown in a year? Two years? Five years? Even if the lockdowns are eased and clamped down again, would you be willing to accept rolling lockdowns as a fact of life with no end in sight? At what point would those wanting tougher restrictions decide they can't live like this anymore?

@Sirius99

All the people that complain about not seeing their families have you not heard of zoom or FaceTime etc, how would you lot of coped in the war, my late father and his sister 4 and 7 were evacuated during the war and never saw their parents again, get a grip this is a once in a lifetime ( hopefully) pandemic, missing a hug will not kill you but Covid might

Wow your delightful aren’t you. This isn’t the war. You can’t compare. Do you really not understand that some people have family and friends they are missing and want to see them? Do you not have anyone you miss?

Oh I can see why you posted that. Pro lockdown by all accounts.

If I can say this in a way which doesn't sound horrible or hostile, sadpaper, part of the problem is our fear of death and our failure to accept that we are all going to die. Some of us will be younger, some of us older, some of us will die the kind of death that we all want for the people we love (namely of old age, peacefully, in their sleep) - but death is mostly not that kind. A couple of my relatives have died 'good' deaths (given that they were in their 90s and had all kinds of 'minor' but uncomfortable health issues - obviously). A friend of mine, a woman in her 30s, died an agonising death of aggressive cancer, leaving three young children. I know two people who have hanged themselves, one a teenager. Her parents found her body. And so on.

So much of the general desire to hide from Covid is based either on a complete denial that death is the only way out for all of us, or on a denial that there are other, vile, things that kill people. Covid is an unpleasant way to die. But it's not the only unpleasant way. And there are just as many people dying long, miserable, vile deaths now as a result of other lockdown-related problems as there are people dying of Covid.

There are also people dying "with Covid" (not "of Covid") who would have died regardless.

We have to accept that death is inevitable, and that an awful lot of us and our loved ones are going to die in unpleasant ways which will probably not involve Covid at all.

MarshaBradyo Here’s the link

@Sirius99

MarshaBradyo Here’s the link

Thanks will get article

@Sirius99

All the people that complain about not seeing their families have you not heard of zoom or FaceTime etc, how would you lot of coped in the war, my late father and his sister 4 and 7 were evacuated during the war and never saw their parents again, get a grip this is a once in a lifetime ( hopefully) pandemic, missing a hug will not kill you but Covid might

Have you not heard of people not having the technology, internet, knowledge, confidence etc to just Zoom family and friends? I am fed up of it being peddled out as the ultimate solution to being isolated. It really is not.

@hamstersarse The rubbish that is the "great barrington declaration" is nothing more than the usual "shield the vulnerable and the rest of us crack on", which takes zero account that even if you attempted this (impossible anyway) then hospitals would still be stuffed with huge amounts of the rest of the population who would need some form of treatment as a result of the virus rapidly passing through the whole population.

I'll comply to avoid the fines and keep a roof over my head and provide for the kids, until such time as one or all of us has a complete mental breakdown.

I expect they'll lift the restrictions when the MH crisis overwhelms the public health system in similar numbers as Covid.

The main reason I am still patient about lockdown is that I can see the vaccination numbers going up. At a guess, we will move back to tiers by Easter. By summer (I hope), the bulk of aged and vulnerable people will have the vaccine and we can look at rebuilding the economy.

Every month that goes by, more businesses go bust, more education is disrupted, more people suffer from isolation and loneliness. Now we have an effective vaccine against the virus, the law of diminishing returns will kick in for lockdown. At some point, it will be more damaging to keep everyone at home than to run risk of opening.

@OrangesAndLemons2
I think they should allow people to mix with one or two other households, even if not a single person household and not for childcare necessarily either. If they were to continue with this long term I mean...I believe that would make people more compliant overall. If they were to keep everything else shut I mean.

You mean like so many people did at Christmas? Do you not think that's why we have such high daily death figures at the moment?
It's not rocket science...

Well I don’t think we really have a choice.
Until society opens up like it was pre covid we are half stuck in this nightmare.

After spring I’m done.
I will be seeing my family again.

Mousehole10 No it not, but the way people are talking you think it’s worse than the war, Yes I am, buthave put with the ability to see and talk to them over different devices, we are just being asked to keep apart, it’s not that difficult really

@Sirius99

All the people that complain about not seeing their families have you not heard of zoom or FaceTime etc, how would you lot of coped in the war, my late father and his sister 4 and 7 were evacuated during the war and never saw their parents again, get a grip this is a once in a lifetime ( hopefully) pandemic, missing a hug will not kill you but Covid might

Yes I have heard of zoom, and have used that and Skype and WhatsApp video calling to speak to my partner and one of my friends. I don't have facetime.

Unfortunately my dad didn't have broadband access or a computer or a tablet or a smartphone, so when he died suddenly in November (not of Covid) I hadn't seen him since Christmas 2019 because he had no way of making video calls. All the restrictions meant I didn't see him in person for almost a year and then he died so like your father I'm never going to see him again. So no, I won't "get a grip".

At what point do they just let us get on with life and let natural selection take over...
Natural selection...survival of the fittest? I don't want my clinically vulnerable 10 year old to die because society has decided the best way of combating a highly contagious virus, afyer a year of trying, is to just let it rip through the world letting the most vulnerable die.

That's not me being happy about lockdown, or not caring about other diseases etc....I've had cancer, I've worked with vulnerable children, I've lost my job, my children are missing education, Ds has shielded for most of the year, I've lost family this year, that I didn't get a chance to say goodbye to. I know lockdown is shit, and I'm furious that, at the moment it is the only option because there have been so many delays and cock ups earlier in the pandemic.
If the alternative is some Great Barrington Declaration, herd immunity let's accept the vulnerable will die...then yes, I think we should try a bit longer.

@StealthPolarBear

No it's NOT about coffee shops and soft plays (although actually I think they're important). It's about seeing family and friends. Why on earth don't people get that? This makes me so furious.

Probably because lots of people live within walking distance of their relatives.

They aren't really affected by restrictions because they can walk past their parents' house every day for a chat in the garden, or to wave at them through the windows, or whatever.

Some of us live miles from parents and haven't seen them for months.

In answer to your question, once they have vaccinated the over 60s, I'm out.

RichardMarxisinnocent You are allowed to travel to see someone who is dying, sorry for your loss

OP it's often people who aren't really economically impacted by this at the moment who are asking dir harsher lockdowns. Ask anyone in hospitality etc who have been hit hard and many who've lost their livelihoods or who are about to. They aren't so happy to just sit back in another 5 year lockdown. Maybe some people on furlough or in corporate jobs which are just not impacted ( mine is not impacted at all for example. They are the ones calling for this to continue. I will take one more yeah of this at the most, after which I will live my life. It's getting ridiculous now.

@DameFanny

Oh for the sake of actual fuck

IT ISN'T LOCKDOWN THAT'S FUCKING THE ECONOMY AND PEOPLE'S JOBS, IT'S THE FUCKING PANDEMIC THAT'S BARELY COMING BACK UNDER CONTROL WITH THE CURRENT LOCKDOWN

If we weren't locked down, illness would be driving businesses and individuals into bankruptcy. Schools would be closed by illness and death. The hospitals would be too full for any additional basic or emergency healthcare. We'd be just as fucked, but with many more dead and probably 1 to 2 million people disabled by long covid.

Lockdown isn't the problem. Get it into your fat head. Coronavirus is the problem.

This, with bells on.

I'm so sick of these threads. I hate lockdown. I hate not being able to hug my family, even dh and DC (shielding). I hate that I lost my income. I hate everything about it. I'm angry with the government faffing around.

But IT'S A VIRUS. It does not give a fig about your civil liberties or mental health. It does what it does and will keep doing it, and be delighted by those of you saying you're going to pack this all in and see your families because you've had enough.

No, I don't think we can lock down for the long term and I don't go with the zero covid thing. But for now, what's the bloody alternative?

People saying all this stuff about cancer treatments and MH seem to indulge in a process of magical thinking whereby if lockdown is released suddenly cancer treatment will resume perfectly and suddenly all MH services be back to normal.

With a virus raging even more out of control.

It. Makes. No. Sense.

This isn’t living for most of us anyway, what would be the point 🤷‍♀️ I wondered when someone would mention the fucking war 😂😂😂

I've had a rethink about this.

If the media reports are true that older people are going to be deciding to forget social distancing once their vaccines kick in then I'll be feeling much less obliged to modify my own behaviour in the future.

My family's lives have been decimated by following the rules. We are not vulnerable. We did it because we thought it was the right thing to do- essentially to protect those more vulnerable than us.

If they can't repay the sentiment then I'm not sure I'll be able to stomach this much longer.

[quote Rosehip10]@hamstersarse The rubbish that is the "great barrington declaration" is nothing more than the usual "shield the vulnerable and the rest of us crack on", which takes zero account that even if you attempted this (impossible anyway) then hospitals would still be stuffed with huge amounts of the rest of the population who would need some form of treatment as a result of the virus rapidly passing through the whole population.[/quote]
So the majority of deaths are still coming from care homes and you think lockdown has helped that?

In what way has lockdown helped care homes?

Focused Protection, as put out in the GBD was not No Protection, as you seem to be saying

@DappledOliveGroves

But people die all the fucking time. I think I'm baffled as to the arrogance of the human race believing it can control a virus and cheat death. At some point, when antibiotic resistance is widespread, perhaps our thinking will change and we'll realise we're not the most important thing on the planet.

I'm confused. Of course we can control viruses!

Many viruses have in fact been controlled and even eradicated through vaccination. Polio. Smallpox. Measles. Mumps. Rubella.

@TiersBeforeBedtime

If I can say this in a way which doesn't sound horrible or hostile, sadpaper, part of the problem is our fear of death and our failure to accept that we are all going to die. Some of us will be younger, some of us older, some of us will die the kind of death that we all want for the people we love (namely of old age, peacefully, in their sleep) - but death is mostly not that kind. A couple of my relatives have died 'good' deaths (given that they were in their 90s and had all kinds of 'minor' but uncomfortable health issues - obviously). A friend of mine, a woman in her 30s, died an agonising death of aggressive cancer, leaving three young children. I know two people who have hanged themselves, one a teenager. Her parents found her body. And so on.

So much of the general desire to hide from Covid is based either on a complete denial that death is the only way out for all of us, or on a denial that there are other, vile, things that kill people. Covid is an unpleasant way to die. But it's not the only unpleasant way. And there are just as many people dying long, miserable, vile deaths now as a result of other lockdown-related problems as there are people dying of Covid.

There are also people dying "with Covid" (not "of Covid") who would have died regardless.

We have to accept that death is inevitable, and that an awful lot of us and our loved ones are going to die in unpleasant ways which will probably not involve Covid at all.

Amen to this.

I wonder how many people agitating for rolling lockdowns, curfews etc have ever watched someone die a bloody awful death, taking months, not days?

If I'm alive in my 90s, then I'd take Covid any day over dementia or cancer.

The Great Barrington Declaration was a feasible alternative but it's like swearing in church to say that, such has it been dismissed without any examination.
It was not a feasible alternative, it was examined by 1000s of scientists who disagreed with it.
Who are The Vulnerable?
How do we protect The Vulnerable?

Yes for NOW @Madhairday the actual OP is talking about restrictions going on for years. I haven’t heard the term ‘Fat Head’ from an adult ever either 😂