417 dead

[Standandwait]

417 people under 40 have died of CV in hospital in England from when the pandemic began to Jan 16, according to the NHS. Another 4,081 under 60 have died.

This is out of 60,921 total deaths NHS England recorded; by comparison, gov.uk counts 89,261 deaths total in England to Jan. 17, but they don’t break it down by age group. The quickest glance at deaths in care homes suggests those basically explain the difference in the two totals. I assume it's possible to come up with comparable figures for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, too -- I just happen to live in England and got tired.

Lord knows, I'm not looking to "kill granny." I have a lot of dearly beloved family over 80, and am closer than not to 60. I also have a disabled child, which means I know not only him but many other very vulnerable families. I have followed lockdown rules quite faithfully, myself.

But I really, really am beginning to have grave reservations about locking down again and again. If you feel otherwise, please talk me around.

It’s not the dying you have to worry about. Most of the people in ITU are younger....

But presumably many people under 40 or under 60 have been saved by hospital treatment, which is what lockdowns ensure is still available.

What about all the people in hospital meaning they are struggling to treat COVID and non-COVID patients, it's not all about deaths

I feel the same as you. It's a nasty virus but seldom fatal and mostly in the very old and frail. And lots of other ill people are not getting the treatment they need. So their condition might become fatal because of this.

The lockdown is to protect the NHS. News reports are showing ambulances queuing and 999 calls going answered and a person dying in a car as their relative tried to get them to hospital themselves after waiting so long for an ambulance. How much worse would this all be with no lockdown ??

Well I know someone currently working on an ICU covid ward and lots of the patients are under 60 and she has a lady of 30 who is pregnant. At the moment lock down is definitely the right thing to do . You have to consider long term health implications as well .

@Viviennemary

I feel the same as you. It's a nasty virus but seldom fatal and mostly in the very old and frail. And lots of other ill people are not getting the treatment they need. So their condition might become fatal because of this.

I don't follow your argument. If we don't control the virus (ie lockdown in one form or another), that will make it even worse for people who are not getting treatment for non covid illnesses, as the nhs will get overwhelmed.

It's always granny isn't it. A fraile, little old lady that has become the symbol of disdain for many people. Never grandad.

The point is, it’s actually young people in ITU, the older people are dying at home. So the issue is you have a lot of very sick 30, 40, 50, 60 year olds in ITU. They younger ones stay there for months, it isn’t usually a quick turn around. I know a 30 something who is on his third week for example. So all those ITU beds and staff gone means they are going to have to pick who gets care or not. Including for non COVID and that’s what is happening.

That’s the issue.

It's also not just about people dying. I know a lot of people including my own 21 year old son suffering from long covid with no idea of when things might improve. The NHS and maybe community health services are also going to have to deal with these long term effects. It's not just a case of people either dying of it or having a mild illness, there are huge numbers in between left long term disabled from this horrible virus. Look at Kate Garraway's husbands - severely ill in hospital since last march and numerous people in the community still on Oxygen therapy .

Yes Whitty said this if you listened ,the virus will kill people . And more if we don’t have lock down . The more who are in hospital. The closer to collapse of nhs . There are 100000 nhs staff off at the moment .

Look at all the figures in Europe not just the uk .Germany has had over 1000 deaths per day as well recently. It’s not just us .

NHS capacity is the problem. If you either had a week in bed feeling rough or died immediately, there would be no problem. It would be very sad and scary, but much easier to deal with.

We currently have more people in hospital than the NHS can safely cope with. They're not all over 80, or even all over 60 - there are plenty in their 40s and 50s as well. We lockdown to reduce hospitalisations.

And one of those 417 people under 40 who died was someone I knew well. So do bear that in mind while posting on a public forum.

So even with all the stuff on the news about overwhelmed health services, ITU patients now being nursed 1:4 instead of the normal 1:1 ratio and patients being sent from areas where they are over capacity to the other size of the country, you want more covid and more patients in hospital? And fewer staff, because if there’s more covid circulating then more staff will get sick.

Medical professionals are right now rationing oxygen, and playing God by deliberating who get treatment/beds. Patients in the South East are being transferred to the other end of the country in a bid to save their lives. What more slap in the face reason do you need to see that lockdown is necessary? Maybe if we started off with double the NHS capacity you may have a point. But we don't.

Yes I wonder how many younger people are dying from cancer and other conditions because they aren’t getting the treatment they need

It's also about the people who are unable to get urgent medical treatment when they need it for other things. It's hard to know what's right anymore. I'm so sick of it all.

@Unsure33 that may well be this lady -

instagram.com/pinaforesandpeonies?igshid=18zgt7z6gglwx

I follow her on insta and it's really grounded me today.

@Cocopogo

Yes I wonder how many younger people are dying from cancer and other conditions because they aren’t getting the treatment they need

This is a massive worry. I work with cancer patients and so many are worried. Routine scans have been cancelled, chemotherapy put off as deemed too risky, cancer Nurse specialists have been redeployed to the wards to help out and now we hear of emergency cancer surgery being delayed. It is a horrendous situation all round.

People with other illnesses aren't getting their treatment partly because the NHS is overwhelmed. If we didn't lockdown do you think they would have a better chance of getting treatment?

It’s also about long Covid. I’m 37, BMI 22, no health conditions. 9 weeks post Covid unable to currently work as a nurse. Also unable to care for my children, do a shop, cook a meal. It’s not just about death. Long Covid currently affecting 10% and mainly women in their 40’s

@Cocopogo

Yes I wonder how many younger people are dying from cancer and other conditions because they aren’t getting the treatment they need

They stand a much better chance of getting treatment if hospitals aren’t swamped with patients who need urgent covid treatment or they will die now.

Keeping control of Covid is the best way to ensure people get treatment for everything they need, when they need it.

I find your post so insulting, ableist and ageist.

I'm 43, have asthma and I'm pregnant. So if I died, I wouldn't count in your statistics. Most people who have died were not about to die anyway.

Anyway, it's less about deaths, and more about stopping the health service from being overwhelmed. Without lockdown, too many people would get ill at once and the health service would be overwhelmed. That would mean people will die from treatable conditions. If there is no bed and no anesthetist and surgeon available, who is going to perform an emergency appendectomy or emergency c section. Lockdown is about keeping the NHS running.

We are so close now. Life will get better. No one wants lockdown, but we need to knuckle down for a few more months.

You've highlighted the problem OP - people are getting it, then living. We don't need to worry about those who die - they free up ICU beds. But as treatment regimes have improved, people are surviving. And they need a lot of NHS resource to keep them alive till they can go home. Look at the number of people in hospital - almost half of all inpatients are there because of covid. And most will be there for weeks.

Lockdown is the only chance those with non-covid illnesses have any chance of getting treatment.

What alternative do you envisage, OP? If we hadn't locked down, those figures would be exponentially higher as more and more were hospitalised and the NHS broke under the strain (as it is almost at the point of now. With lockdowns.) People would die of many, many conditions besides covid if they could not access healthcare.

People are going to die already due to the NHS being overwhelmed, of cancer, heart disease, lung disease and much more. By allowing covid to rip free, what will those figures look like then?

Really, after all this time people are still coming out with this lack of critical thinking. And they never have a viable alternative (no, shield the vulnerable is not a viable alternative, it is soundly debunked across the medical/scientific world.)

OP I get it. It sucks. But please think about what you are suggesting, or the ramifications of what you are asking us to explore.