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How should masks be enforced in public?

452 replies

User158340 · 11/01/2021 16:27

Indoors in general (shops, public transport etc).

I don't believe in making it mandatory because there are people who are genuinely exempt but there's so many piss takers.

There should be 'medically exempt' badges dished out by GP's only, on prescription essentially.

This should have been GP led from the get go, not trusting the British public. We see where that gets us.

OP posts:
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Maverickess · 13/01/2021 19:14

I agree it is not a major sacrifice, but you are asking for something that does not exist. No one in the NHS is issuing proof of medical exemptions. The U.K. Government has also legislated that asking for any such proof is illegal.

Secondly, shop staff are in a difficult position because they are being asked to enforce the unenforceable. All visible signs- card, lanyard, etc are meaningless because both genuine and fake mask exempt use them. In addition it is illegal for them to ask for any medical documents as proof of medical exemption because these documents do not exist.

So it’s not that people with genuine exemptions don’t think they should have to indicate they are exempt, it is because simply there is no way in existence to do that. Every way available to them is wide open for appropriation and abuse by fakers, and so utterly useless. It becomes performative nonsense and so I do not blame mask exempt for choosing not to wear a meaningless lanyard or wave a card anyone can download and print off the internet.

The blame really lies with the U.K. government on this. They created this situation where genuine from faker cannot be determined by appearances and the very act of asking for proof is illegal. They set up this impossible situation. Not the mask exempt. And the mask exempt are not responsible, as others have suggested, for tackling the fakers and stopping them.

Yes, no such proof exists, and about shop staff being in a difficult position due to legislation saying shops have to "Take reasonable steps to ensure compliance" but that asking for proof is not allowed. That's akin to saying you must not sell alcohol to someone under 18, but must not ask for ID.

I was told on another thread that asking for proof is not allowed because it's discrimination, I honestly don't see how this is the case (I'm not trying to be goady here) when something is mandatory to happen, and in law those responsible for the premises (managers or owners etc) are told to take reasonable steps to ensure mask compliance, yet have no way of ensuring it, the main way outlawed.
I realise of course that that is the fault of the legislators and no one else, but, having followed discussions like this before it has seemed to me that people who are genuinely exempt, don't want anything official either. That baffles me and I can see how it's leading to frustration, I agree at the moment, there's nothing to show, but many are against the idea, when it's likely to be the most effective way to stop people claiming exemptions where there are none, and stopping people challenging anyone and everyone not wearing a mask in an area it's required because they'd know that they're exempt, and if they do, well my vote would go to out on yer arse mate.

The whole reason that people are worried/annoyed is because they know that no proof can be asked for, and people are using that to just carry on.

I know that the NHS is under huge strain, I know that very well, but a proof system could have been set up at the start (not to mention wearing them sooner) and administered by government, some of the wasted money on test and trace which is bloody useless could have been diverted.

I do wonder if the government didn't think that enough people to make a difference would use exemptions as an excuse to not wear a mask when they can, and seriously overestimated people's morals in general, thinking that very few people would take advantage of this because (at least to me) it's a low move, because of the impact on those at risk and the impact of those genuinely exempt.

I don't think the answer though is just for anyone wanting a safe as possible work environment, or that is genuinely concerned about it, just shut up and put up. Or for the exempt to do that either. Look how that ended with teachers and schools.

I don't think mask exempt are responsible for tackling and catching fakers, but I do think they have an essential role to play if proof is brought in, and actually in adding their weight to the argument for that proof to become a thing. It benefits them too, because they're less likely (not impossible I get that, every village has an idiot and all that) to be challenged, and also less likely to be infected because there'll be less people without masks, having weeded out the fakers at the door.

And another question, again not trying to be goady, does anyone know what happens with HCPs that are exempt? I am in dementia care and honestly I've not come across, nor seen anywhere about carers, HCPs etc being exempt and either carrying on with their job, or being furloughed or anything. Nor has my friend in ICU or a paramedic family member. I realise that's a minute survey, but if conditions that need a mask exemption are so prevalent in society as it's appearing to be, surely it stands to reason the NHS, police, social care etc will have a proportion within their ranks?
Everyone I ask in those professions just says they don't know as they haven't come across it.

MerciSeat · 13/01/2021 19:28

@Maverickess

I'd happily back a recognised scheme. Sadly however it won't stop people making assumptions, in the same way some people those on disability benefits are scroungers.

HCPs who can't wear masks can't take clinical roles. There's a lady who posted a lot here last year when masks became mandatory who had planned to become a surgeon. However her inability to wear a mask meant she couldn't.

Ilovemypantry · 13/01/2021 20:14

@MerciSeat

Right, to be quite clear. Now that supermarkets and other store staff have been instructed not to allow anyone into the store without a mask or showing proof that they are exempt, I will have no reason to challenge anyone I see not wearing a mask or lanyard. This makes me very happy, knowing that staff now have the right to refuse entry, something they didn’t have before. It must make things much easier for the staff too, it must have been so frustrating for them not being able to do so before

@Ilovemypantry

Sorry to piss in your wellies, but they're not asking for proof. They're telling customers to wear masks, if a customer says they're exempt, in they go.

For the bajillionth time, there is no such thing as proof.

They absolutely are asking for proof...I witnessed it myself at Tesco yesterday. Now you will call me a liar no doubt.
Maverickess · 13/01/2021 20:15

@MerciSeat

Thanks, I hope people that can't be moved to non clinical are looked after, thinking of care workers here, the sector is not renowned for treating it's staff well! And there's not a lot of non clinical roles they can perform.

This topic of people refusing to wear masks really winds me up, probably because I live in an area of low compliance generally. It's also a deprived area, and local charities (including the one I volunteered for) and some businesses have offered free masks to those on low incomes, indeed we gave them out with the food parcels we sent, some local shops offer them for free if you're shopping. I see such a lot of people without though, on public transport and in the local shops, and just carrying on barging past you, sit right in front of you on the bus. I really don't want to be the one who takes it into my workplace, I don't think I could live with myself.
They're pretty much all young men too, hanging round in groups (that predates covid) and generally causing havoc. They're just wandering into the shops/onto the buses and giving the staff a gob full if they say anything. If I never hear the words "Fucking exempt aren't I?!" Again it'll be too soon!
I don't think it's just a depravation thing though, I worked in a restaurant from going back in July until before they closed again (changed jobs before then) and it was an expensive place, with a different clientele. When it was brought in that people needed to wear masks unless seated and eating, we got so much abuse. I lost track of the amount of times I was laughed at, sworn at and just ignored. Also the other rules placed on us to police were impossible to do, people just wouldn't do it. Short of rugby tackling them I didn't really know what else to do.
So I've experienced the way some people can be towards staff that have to do this, and witnessed it so many more times, and feel I'm more at risk than I need to be. I hear my NHS family and friends saying how bad things are getting and just despair.
I really think these people need pulling into line, sharply and swiftly and by sanctions if necessary because they're just fucking it up even more than it already is and the really sad thing is, so many seem proud of it.

Ilovemypantry · 13/01/2021 20:21

[quote XenoBitch]@Ilovemypantry

I am absolutely not ashamed of challenging someone not wearing a mask and I am so pleased that shop staff can now refuse entry.

So, do you challenge people breaking other rules too? Such as people meeting outside that are not in the same household? Or large groups of teens in the park? Or do you just like to pick on someone that most likely has a hidden disability?[/quote]
I challenge people that I think might affect me, hence the person not wearing a mask in the same shop I’m in.
Someone meeting outside with someone not in their household doesn’t affect me, neither does large groups of teens in the park (I don’t go to the park anyway so couldn’t care less what happens there).
You call it “picking on someone with a hidden disability “, I call it challenging someone not wearing a mask. If you’re someone with a hidden disability just wear a bloody lanyard, then there’s no chance of you “getting picked on”.

MercyBooth · 13/01/2021 20:22

.I witnessed it myself at Tesco yesterday

I saw a middle aged woman wearing a lanyard get asked if she could wear a mask in Tesco yesterday. She replied that she could but only for short periods as she has a variable health condition. So got asked to wear one so she did.

The 6 foot bloke who walked in behind her without a mask on and no lanyard. Not a fucking word.

MerciSeat · 13/01/2021 20:25

@Ilovemypantry I'm not going to call you a liar. I'm going to say that the member of shop staff you witnessed was mistaken or overzealous and that Tesco itself has said it will not be asking for proof. I think you'll find that other supermarkets you visit in the coming weeks won't be asking for proof, either. And why? Altogether now... Because there isn't any!

You can't ask for something which doesn't exist.

Ilovemypantry · 13/01/2021 20:30

[quote Maverickess]@MerciSeat

Thanks, I hope people that can't be moved to non clinical are looked after, thinking of care workers here, the sector is not renowned for treating it's staff well! And there's not a lot of non clinical roles they can perform.

This topic of people refusing to wear masks really winds me up, probably because I live in an area of low compliance generally. It's also a deprived area, and local charities (including the one I volunteered for) and some businesses have offered free masks to those on low incomes, indeed we gave them out with the food parcels we sent, some local shops offer them for free if you're shopping. I see such a lot of people without though, on public transport and in the local shops, and just carrying on barging past you, sit right in front of you on the bus. I really don't want to be the one who takes it into my workplace, I don't think I could live with myself.
They're pretty much all young men too, hanging round in groups (that predates covid) and generally causing havoc. They're just wandering into the shops/onto the buses and giving the staff a gob full if they say anything. If I never hear the words "Fucking exempt aren't I?!" Again it'll be too soon!
I don't think it's just a depravation thing though, I worked in a restaurant from going back in July until before they closed again (changed jobs before then) and it was an expensive place, with a different clientele. When it was brought in that people needed to wear masks unless seated and eating, we got so much abuse. I lost track of the amount of times I was laughed at, sworn at and just ignored. Also the other rules placed on us to police were impossible to do, people just wouldn't do it. Short of rugby tackling them I didn't really know what else to do.
So I've experienced the way some people can be towards staff that have to do this, and witnessed it so many more times, and feel I'm more at risk than I need to be. I hear my NHS family and friends saying how bad things are getting and just despair.
I really think these people need pulling into line, sharply and swiftly and by sanctions if necessary because they're just fucking it up even more than it already is and the really sad thing is, so many seem proud of it.[/quote]
At last! Someone talking a bit of sense and not causing an argument just for the sheer hell of it.
What you have described is just the type of scenario I have witnessed time and time again. People think they’re oh so clever by flouting the rules and it’s almost a game to them. I bet they haven’t lost a loved one to the virus or know anyone seriously ill with it, otherwise they just wouldn’t act like that. They need to visit a Covid ward and see first hand what this virus does to people, and not just old people either. It might make them think differently and act responsibly, I would hope so anyway.

MerciSeat · 13/01/2021 20:31

I challenge people that I think might affect me, hence the person not wearing a mask in the same shop I’m in.
Someone meeting outside with someone not in their household doesn’t affect me, neither does large groups of teens in the park (I don’t go to the park anyway so couldn’t care less what happens there).
You call it “picking on someone with a hidden disability “, I call it challenging someone not wearing a mask. If you’re someone with a hidden disability just wear a bloody lanyard, then there’s no chance of you “getting picked on”

@Ilovemypantry but you've admitted that anyone can pick up a lanyard and they're no proof of exemption, so effectively you're telling people who are taking the piss to crack on, they'll be safe from Officer Pantry of the Mask Police?

GirlCrush · 13/01/2021 20:32

@Ilovemypantry nobody working in retail is asking for proof of exemption......nobody is unless they want to lose their job

the equality act prevents this .........i'm a retail manager, we've been working with this since masks were made mandatory

nothing has changed. nothing

we have always asked the massless if they have a mask, if not we provide one. the exempt go in. simple as

GirlCrush · 13/01/2021 20:33

*maskless not massless!!!

Ilovemypantry · 13/01/2021 20:34

[quote MerciSeat]@Ilovemypantry I'm not going to call you a liar. I'm going to say that the member of shop staff you witnessed was mistaken or overzealous and that Tesco itself has said it will not be asking for proof. I think you'll find that other supermarkets you visit in the coming weeks won't be asking for proof, either. And why? Altogether now... Because there isn't any!

You can't ask for something which doesn't exist.[/quote]
It does exist, it’s called a lanyard and you wear it round your neck.

XenoBitch · 13/01/2021 20:36

@Ilovemypantry

A lanyard proves nothing. All it shows is you bought a lanyard.

If you are so enraged and scared of people not wearing masks then why don't you have your shopping delivered?

MerciSeat · 13/01/2021 20:38

At last! Someone talking a bit of sense and not causing an argument just for the sheer hell of it.
What you have described is just the type of scenario I have witnessed time and time again. People think they’re oh so clever by flouting the rules and it’s almost a game to them. I bet they haven’t lost a loved one to the virus or know anyone seriously ill with it, otherwise they just wouldn’t act like that. They need to visit a Covid ward and see first hand what this virus does to people, and not just old people either. It might make them think differently and act responsibly, I would hope so anyway

@Ilovemypantry none of that has anything to do with you illegally harassing people in Tesco.

I've lost loved ones to Covid - it hasn't made me think that behaving the way you do is acceptable.

I understand that you're scared and that fear makes people angry and tense. But please, don't take it out on people - some of whom are exempt due to PTSD or anxiety, who absolutely do not need to be shouted at in public - who are already living with often debilitating health conditions (which don't necessarily make them more vulnerable to Covid, before you suggest it).

Do your shopping, don't instigate interactions which are not necessary, and leave the shop ASAP, the way we're all meant to be doing. If you're concerned about catching Covid do not approach people without masks.

GirlCrush · 13/01/2021 20:38

@Ilovemypantry

that lanyard is NOT proof

firstly, our store gives them away free to anyone who asks
secondly they are available on eBay for all to buy
and thirdly they are nothing to do with covid they are a reminder to staff that the wearer may need extra help!

Ilovemypantry · 13/01/2021 20:40

@MerciSeat

*I challenge people that I think might affect me, hence the person not wearing a mask in the same shop I’m in. Someone meeting outside with someone not in their household doesn’t affect me, neither does large groups of teens in the park (I don’t go to the park anyway so couldn’t care less what happens there). You call it “picking on someone with a hidden disability “, I call it challenging someone not wearing a mask. If you’re someone with a hidden disability just wear a bloody lanyard, then there’s no chance of you “getting picked on”*

@Ilovemypantry but you've admitted that anyone can pick up a lanyard and they're no proof of exemption, so effectively you're telling people who are taking the piss to crack on, they'll be safe from Officer Pantry of the Mask Police?

But why would someone pick up a lanyard and pretend they’re exempt if they’re not? What would be the point unless they deliberately wanted to spread the virus? Do people like that actually exist? “Officer Pantry of the Mask Police”...I quite like that!
Ilovemypantry · 13/01/2021 20:44

@MerciSeat

*At last! Someone talking a bit of sense and not causing an argument just for the sheer hell of it. What you have described is just the type of scenario I have witnessed time and time again. People think they’re oh so clever by flouting the rules and it’s almost a game to them. I bet they haven’t lost a loved one to the virus or know anyone seriously ill with it, otherwise they just wouldn’t act like that. They need to visit a Covid ward and see first hand what this virus does to people, and not just old people either. It might make them think differently and act responsibly, I would hope so anyway*

@Ilovemypantry none of that has anything to do with you illegally harassing people in Tesco.

I've lost loved ones to Covid - it hasn't made me think that behaving the way you do is acceptable.

I understand that you're scared and that fear makes people angry and tense. But please, don't take it out on people - some of whom are exempt due to PTSD or anxiety, who absolutely do not need to be shouted at in public - who are already living with often debilitating health conditions (which don't necessarily make them more vulnerable to Covid, before you suggest it).

Do your shopping, don't instigate interactions which are not necessary, and leave the shop ASAP, the way we're all meant to be doing. If you're concerned about catching Covid do not approach people without masks.

Please tell me (show me, actually), what law I’m breaking by asking someone where their mask is? Not “why aren’t you wearing a mask?” but “where is your mask?”. Not shouting, not getting close to them, just asking. Show me the law please.
MerciSeat · 13/01/2021 20:45

It does exist, it’s called a lanyard and you wear it round your neck

I despair.

You've already admitted that lanyards can be picked up by anyone. They're not issued by an official body. Anyone can nip into Sainsbury's and grab one from the customer services desk, free of charge.

You've been told this, you accept this, so why do you keep insisting a piece of fabric available to anyone is proof of mask exemption?

And yes, antimaskers do exist, as well you know.

Ilovemypantry · 13/01/2021 20:49

@MerciSeat

It does exist, it’s called a lanyard and you wear it round your neck

I despair.

You've already admitted that lanyards can be picked up by anyone. They're not issued by an official body. Anyone can nip into Sainsbury's and grab one from the customer services desk, free of charge.

You've been told this, you accept this, so why do you keep insisting a piece of fabric available to anyone is proof of mask exemption?

And yes, antimaskers do exist, as well you know.

In the absence of anything else available as it would seem that exempt people do not have any proof, it’s the only visible thing that shows others that you don’t have to wear a mask.
MerciSeat · 13/01/2021 20:53

@Ilovemypantry but it's not proof, which is what you claim it is.

MerciSeat · 13/01/2021 20:55

Incidentally, this is from the government guidelines for businesses regarding denying entry to those not wearing masks. And it's the law.

How should masks be enforced in public?
XenoBitch · 13/01/2021 20:56

If a random shopper asked me where my mask was I would tell them it is in the same aisle as the 'mind your own fucking business' section.

GirlCrush · 13/01/2021 20:59

we have had customers arguing with other customers in our store

usually 'you are too close get back" but have seen more and more about masks. not just the fact some people aren't wearing them but the fact they are half covering factor under the chin.

a nasty incident this week already 2 grown men shouting at the tills over masks. great fun to break up not!!!

confuseddotcom090 · 13/01/2021 21:00

Mumsnet wants to watch out for all these mask zealots. They're effectively publishing hate speech.

Those who do not wear face masks in stores are afforded legal protection of their right not to do so under the Health Protection, Coronavirus regulations, specificallly the exemptions to the mandate. The exemption specifically makes reference to disability (visible or otherwise) as an acceptable reason. It has to be accepted, according to government guidelines that if a person claims exemption under this law that they have good reason and should not be challenged.
However, this website seems happy to allow to go unchallenged comments which suggest that such individuals who claim exemption, should be have their freedom of movement curtailed. There are plenty of examples above.

The definition of a Hate Incident is:
“any incident which the victim, or anyone else, thinks is based on someone’s prejudice towards them because of their race, religion, sexual orientation, disability or because they are transgender.”

Just saying Mumsnet. You might want to moderate some of the mask fanatics on this site before you face a legal challenge for inciting a hate incident.

GirlCrush · 13/01/2021 21:01

@XenoBitch

If a random shopper asked me where my mask was I would tell them it is in the same aisle as the 'mind your own fucking business' section.
i hope you would control the ensuing argument/shouting/retaliation yourself and not expect staff to intervene?