Surprised people aren't more angry over the state of the NHS

[IHTC]

I see loads of comments and have heard people vent about how frustrated they are with rule benders/breakers. I rarely see anyone show anger at the state of the NHS.

It's completely unfit for purpose. The population expands year on year yet our healthcare system hasn't been developed in line with population growth. The public are constantly being asked to make sacrifices because of the government's incompetence and rather than question and hold the government to account, it's like we've been manipulated into turning against one another. Find it all so strange.

@Covine

But the choice is between this system or the US system

Why do people say this? Both the UK and the USA represent extremes, neither of which work particularly well (although contrary to popular UK belief the US does have a free emergency system which unlike the UK doesn't require access to public funds). There are many many other models in existence which work better than each of these.

And given the frankly ridiculously almost holy status that the NHS has in public consciousness - it even featured in our bloody Olympics opening ceremony ffs, which was cringe in the extreme - there's no way that any political party would suddenly flip over to a full co-pay system.

Saying that we would and that this is the only alternative is part of what's stopping us from having a clear headed rational discussion about how to construct a health system that meets our needs.

Agree with this.

We do need to pay more, but there also is a fully rational option that is still closer to.NHS than US where we pay for a portion of our care, up to a capped point - or have a requirement for insurance. Realistically, many of the posters here can afford £10 for a GP appointment, right now they'd resent paying it, but might be a lot happier if they realised that as in, say, Australia, it also means being able to actually choose an appointment time and get a decent length appointment, while still allowing children and those on low incomes free access. There are other working models too.

We also need to invest a lot more in preventative measures. If we did more to encourage exercise, social connections and healthier diets, we would massively decrease the long term burden on the NHS.

I'm angry about it, it's awful. I'm just so exhausted by politics (the past 5 years especially) that I've not got the energy to be vocal about it.

US does have a free emergency system

No it doesn't. You get a bill afterwards.

What about a referendum to review the NHS? Stay as it is but everyone (and I mean everyone even if it’s just pennies) funds the changes or some co funding. Just because you are over 60 doesn’t mean you shouldn’t pay for a prescription.

Exemptions for certain people but not just done on age. Apparently 9 out of 10 prescriptions are free. Lots of older people can afford it.

Because the transition to the US model will require no discussion, no action at all other than a nudge towards more private health cover.

It requires a lot more than that in planning, fiscal, logistical and economic terms.

All of which would be very noticeable, even to the people banging saucepans for their heroes every Thursday.

@herecomesthsun

They voted in shedloads for Boris just a year ago.

They VOTED for worse healthcare and schools.

This ^^. Tories have been in power for yonks, everyone knows what voting Tory means for public services and yet... I work in the NHS and in the run up to the last election I was astonished at how many of my colleagues said they planned to vote Conservative, and how many of them “loved” Boris. What can you do?

I know someone involved in the formation of a Nightingale unit. She is in a business function within the NHS, not clinical. All the people she worked with involved with Nightingale were given branded NHS Nightingale hoodies - in fact she got 5 to give to members of her family!

Don't tell me that NHS funds are being used appropriately. It's a disgrace.

And for those calling for US ALL to pay in more for the NHS, at least be honest and admit you mean US ALL WHO EARN MORE THAN ME. The amount that is going to have to be repaid as a result of this entire pandemic is going to come from taxes. I don't want to pay even more to prop up a failing institution that is no longer and never will be again, fit for purpose.

Over six million jobs pay less than £9.30

Well that's an absolutely fundamental problem with the country, I don't know why we put up with it.
We are a very rich country full to the brim of really poor people just scraping by. The wealth gap in the UK is a scandal. We seem to like it that way though.

@kendodd which you don't pay if you don't have the funds/insurance.

I know it blows UK NHS cheerleaders' minds, but if you're an migrant with no visa rights you'll get treated in an emergency and if you don't have funds you don't pay.

Agree O. P. I've been saying this for a while so won't Labour the point.
Nothing to do with right wing or left wing in power, this is the result of decades of poor funding management from All parties.

Well I guess the hundreds of contracts now under Virgincare, will be ready and waiting when insurance based healthcare is gradually bought in.

As an ex medic. You are absolutely right OP.

I know it blows UK NHS cheerleaders' minds, but if you're an migrant with no visa rights you'll get treated in an emergency and if you don't have funds you don't pay.

This does not stop them doing everything they can to pursue you for the money. It's like saying hotels in the UK are free because if you stay in one and don't have any money to pay the bill your stay is free. It's not free, just like emergency treatment in the US isn't free. The only con they give (which you might be referring to) is that they can't refuse to treat you in an emergency (although treatment may be absolute minimum)

torgue the figure is much higher:

In 2018/19 around £115 billion was spent on the NHS England budget.

Re: insurance based system:- the choice doesn't have to be US system or the NHS.

Germany has an insurance system, you can choose public or private, public run by the state and funded to the extent you can't afford it. No exclusions for existing conditions, no caps on treatment.

The US govt already spend more per capita on health cover yet c.60 million have no coverage at all, there are existing condition exclusions, appalling levels of co-pay and caps on cover (reach the cap and treatment is stopped).

The problem with proposing an insurance system in the UK is twofold: 1. People think you mean a US system and to be honest, who would trust the Tories to not deliver one of those? and 2. It still needs decent funding, per Germany's higher taxes.

Lots of info here-

www.kingsfund.org.uk/audio-video/key-facts-figures-nhs

@herethereandeverywhere

Re: insurance based system:- the choice doesn't have to be US system or the NHS.

Germany has an insurance system, you can choose public or private, public run by the state and funded to the extent you can't afford it. No exclusions for existing conditions, no caps on treatment.

The US govt already spend more per capita on health cover yet c.60 million have no coverage at all, there are existing condition exclusions, appalling levels of co-pay and caps on cover (reach the cap and treatment is stopped).

The problem with proposing an insurance system in the UK is twofold: 1. People think you mean a US system and to be honest, who would trust the Tories to not deliver one of those? and 2. It still needs decent funding, per Germany's higher taxes.

I agree with all this.

The German system is 'mutual' - everyone is entitled, the cost is low, nothing is excluded, it is often a regional mutual set-up.

It is cheaper than UK private insurance and far cheaper than the US system, which is the most expensive in the world (not because it treats more people, but it treats fewer people and it costs an outrageous amount because extravagant profits are being made, which is why the US desperately want a share the UK health market. The cost of medicines there is extortionate and this is what Boris Johnson was planning on handing over to the US as part of the trade deal).

No. Much as I think Johnson is a cunt, the UK currently has a deal to get US medicines cheaply as the NHS is a bulk purchaser. This is now up for contractual review as are all large procurement matters in light of Brexit and cyclical contractual negotiation timetables. Nobody's handing over anything.

I’m furious about it !

Everyone is an expert on the NHS, I’m not sure how as most of them don’t seem to have ever worked in it. What needs to happen is that it’s made independent of the government, political whims should not be a part of healthcare. There are loads of things our NHS does better than other systems. Last week we’d done as many vaccines as the whole of Europe put together. It just comes down to more funding and people taking some responsibility for their own health and not wasting resources. Whatever funding system you want they all involve paying more which people don’t want to do

People will be happy to pay a proportionate amount to their earnings if they get decent care

Tbh i found the NHS pre covid absolutely fine. I've used it and never had a complaint at all, as have my family. It's pretty rubbish atm but we're in a pandemic so obviously demand will outstrip what's in place. I would say though that A&E has been poor for a few years with waiting times, but that's due to the public using it as a walk in gp rather than for emergencies. I think our NHS is great and works well when services are used properly.

@dingledongle

People will be happy to pay a proportionate amount to their earnings if they get decent care

No many people want to pay as little as possible and take as much out as possible. Every single need prescribed for from moisturisers to gluten free food to baby milk to things they could buy from a pharmacy. Not to mention the amount that ends up on eBay or in the bin. I’m sure those quibbling about buying a bottle of calpol will be more than willing to pay more tax

Those blaming tories should note that in wales the nhs is devolved and run by Labour and is far from fit for purpose here. Neither political party has a glowing record in recent decades when it comes to the NHS.

In wales we had one trust in special measures between 2015-2020. Five years of under performing? That's terrible.

Before covid, one of my parents lived for merely few months after finally being diagnosed with terminal cancer having been back and forth to the GP on a monthly basis for nearly two years and being palmed off as having various infections. They never fully discovered what type of cancer it was; every biopsy was inconclusive as insufficient tissue was taken and another test was needed. In the end my parent decided that it wasn't important as there was nothing that could be done anyway. In a few appointments some questions couldn't be answered as the consultant didn't have access to the full medical notes. None of that seems fit for purpose to me.

The NHS is underfunded based on its current structure. Whilst it could always use more funding, right now any extra money would be going into a bottomless pit. Serious reform is needed in how the NHS structured and how it works. It needs to be proactive. Not reactive. Being proactive is also probably cheaper in the long run. More proactivity in the beginning may have prevented my parent from bed blocking in a coma for two months as they clung on despite having no life support and being DNR. Instead our experience was years of misdiagnosis before utterly pointless tests, rounds of pointless (mind blowing expensive) immunotherapy, and two months of taking up a bed.

But we're not allowed to criticise the NHS because immediately you're criticising the actual doctors and nurses (I don't include many GPs in that).

I’m so angry with this awful awful lying government.

When I hear BJ’s voice I want to kick the tv or radio.

The state of the NHS is just part of that.

Hold on to this OP. Don’t let it crush you but use that anger to get rid of this shit shit shit government next time.