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Surprised people aren't more angry over the state of the NHS

136 replies

IHTC · 11/01/2021 16:13

I see loads of comments and have heard people vent about how frustrated they are with rule benders/breakers. I rarely see anyone show anger at the state of the NHS.

It's completely unfit for purpose. The population expands year on year yet our healthcare system hasn't been developed in line with population growth. The public are constantly being asked to make sacrifices because of the government's incompetence and rather than question and hold the government to account, it's like we've been manipulated into turning against one another. Find it all so strange.

OP posts:
Eviebeans · 11/01/2021 17:10

The service had been subject to cuts over many years and was on its knees before this happened. It manages to provide the level of service it does due to the hard work and ingenuity of the staff. Clap for the NHS needs to change to cash for the NHS.

StatisticalSense · 11/01/2021 17:13

The reason the NHS has been 'underfunded' by successive governments are because it's funding demands are completely unsustainable. If you want to blame politicians for the state of the health service in this country you are better off blaming successive oppositions (on both sides) for refusing to co-operate with plans for badly needed wide scale reform of the NHS.

faerin · 11/01/2021 17:14

People need to STOP voting Tory.

midgebabe · 11/01/2021 17:15

It's been cut because no one wants to raise taxes to pay for it

If we pay less than other countries, we will get less

PaulHollywoodsLowHangingFruit · 11/01/2021 17:17

No- it is shockingly run and deemed by most as above scrutiny-therefore the status quo continues.

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 11/01/2021 17:19

A Swedish friend told me that in Sweden (popularly supposed to be a socialist Utopia) everyone (inc. her dad who was 90 at the time) pays - albeit a small amount - for prescriptions, and for visits to GP and A&E. plus ditto for the ‘board’ element of hospital stays.

There is an annual cap on prescription charges for those who need a lot.

We need something similar here but I can’t ever see any govt. daring to do it. The Tories never will - it’d be electoral suicide - and Labour wouldn’t have the guts - so wedded to the sacred cow of ‘free at the point of use’.

Also, everyone I know who’s worked for the NHS has moaned about waste, inefficiency, and too many managers.

MrsMiaWallis · 11/01/2021 17:19

@StatisticalSense

The reason the NHS has been 'underfunded' by successive governments are because it's funding demands are completely unsustainable. If you want to blame politicians for the state of the health service in this country you are better off blaming successive oppositions (on both sides) for refusing to co-operate with plans for badly needed wide scale reform of the NHS.
I agree
BlueBaubles12 · 11/01/2021 17:20

People didn’t give a shit in 2015, 2017 and 2019 when they elected a Conservative government. Unclear why that should have changed now.

HappyFlamingo · 11/01/2021 17:20

midgebabe Our tax rates aren't particularly low compared to other European countries:

tradingeconomics.com/country-list/personal-income-tax-rate?continent=europe

Covine · 11/01/2021 17:23

I agree that we need to look at different funding models. It's all very well saying "pay more tax" but we are increasingly a low wage economy with a high cost of living so raising tax across the board isn't a workable solution.

The problem is that a high quality universal free at point of access healthcare system is not possible. You can have one or maybe two of those three elements but you cannot have all three.

Up to us which element we do without but being free at point of access means losing quality in comparison to other models in comparable countries, which is something we've been doing for years.

PortiasPlumUpduffedPudding · 11/01/2021 17:25

Vote for shit you get shit

Kendodd · 11/01/2021 17:26

There is so much mis-management and inefficiency

Why do people believe this bullshit Tory anti public spending propaganda? The NHS is not mismanaged or inefficient or massively wasteful. Compared to other systems around the world, value for money, it performs very well indeed. Just imagine how good it could be if it was funded better?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40608253

PaulHollywoodsLowHangingFruit · 11/01/2021 17:27

Personally, I don't think we should be 'saving the NHS' in its current form.

As others have commented -other countries have far superior systems.

torquewench · 11/01/2021 17:29

The NHS employs 1,200,000 people and eats £1.4 billion a year. Why cant t cope?

2021vision · 11/01/2021 17:32

For me this pandemic has shown not how the NHS can't cope but just how overpopulated our country and the world is. It also shows how many people just do not take any personal responsibility and look after themselves and their health. People expect to do what they like and then expect the NHS to be there to fix it. No amount of money will be enough because people will always want more.

sleepwhenidie · 11/01/2021 17:35

@Tearsfortiers

Some excellent posts on here. The state of the NHS is not down to underfunding by the current government. It has been in crisis for many years under both Tory and Labour governments. Throwing more money at it is not the issue. There is appalling waste and mismanagement of resources in the NHS. We expect it to be able to do things it was never designed to do. I truly don't know what the answer is but it needs a radical rethink.
Agree with all of this, true reform of the NHS would take more than a single term of any government. And no party will grab the hideous thorns necessary to do so. It needs to be tackled by a cross party team, over a realistic time frame, can’t see any other way.
QuantumJump · 11/01/2021 17:38

torquewench It can't cope because of the increasing medical needs due to people (on average) living longer.

herecomesthsun · 11/01/2021 17:41

@torquewench

The NHS employs 1,200,000 people and eats £1.4 billion a year. Why cant t cope?
The NHS has had cuts in real terms year on year since the Conservatives came to power.

The UK had a pandemic plan, which South Korea followed to good effect. However, the UK didn't bother to keep up-to-date PPE in stock, and when we had a pandemic, our leaders were more interested in handing lucrative contacts to their mates than in making sure we had the PPE and equipment needed.

Public Health has been systematically run down in recent years. We have cut our numbers of hospital beds and have some of the fewest ICU beds per capita in Europe.

Deary me, it's a hard one isn't it, why on earth is the NHS not coping?

notalwaysalondoner · 11/01/2021 17:44

I think part of the issue is that the public feeling towards the NHS is so strong it doesn't allow for real reform. The things that need to happen the government can't make happen as there is such an outcry. Don't get me wrong, it has been handled incompetently, the amount of money spent on NHS managers, bureaucrats and consultants is insane. But I do think there is also political suicide in NHS reform which is why everyone is too scared to touch it.

There are parallels with May's reforms to care home fees - trying to make people pay for their own elderly care, you'd think she was torturing old people rather than just getting them to use their own assets to pay for care homes. There's not a god given right for your children to inherit your assets, but you saw how that went down publicly...and it is actually connected because if elder care provision was better hospitals would be a lot less full. I've seen wards where 100% of the people there are basically geriatric beds where the patient has no specific medical needs but can't access social elder care. That of course is how the care home COVID scandal happened when they suddenly discharged them all - but it showed how many there were.

2021hastobebetter · 11/01/2021 17:44

The nhs does need review. The amount of % of gdp is higher now than ever before I think 4% of the population works for the nhs. My sibling is a doctor. It’s broken - many cases of Covid are being picked up IN hospital. At least 50% according to my sister. More managers than doctors. My sister says her pay is huge - and she works fixed hours. We have problems with our local hospital and cases of Noro virus at the best of times. I know at least 6 people that have gone into hospital and contracted Covid there (!). Also up for discussion is the huge profits made by private care homes and then not providing PPE for staff or giving their residents Covid and them dying whilst in ‘their care’. But there is no easy answer. I’ve had amazing experiences with the nhs and horrendous ones.

PodgeBod · 11/01/2021 17:48

My opinion- people don't get angry about the state of the NHS because they have no idea how much better it could be. All I hear is "we are so lucky to have an NHS, we should be grateful, it could be worse, we could be like the US" which is all true but it ignores all the ways it could be better. The government has amplified that by paying lip service to how amazing the NHS is and how hard the employees work without bothering to try to improve it or make the employees lives easier. And instead we get feel good stories about elderly men raising money for the NHS and Boris clapping on his doorstep.
If there was an interesting and engaging TV series about how health systems work in other countries compared to the NHS (both the good and the bad) I think it would open up the conversation and spark calls for change

hamstersarse · 11/01/2021 17:50

[quote Kendodd]There is so much mis-management and inefficiency

Why do people believe this bullshit Tory anti public spending propaganda? The NHS is not mismanaged or inefficient or massively wasteful. Compared to other systems around the world, value for money, it performs very well indeed. Just imagine how good it could be if it was funded better?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40608253[/quote]
If you have ever dealt with procurement in the NHS you wouldn’t be saying that.

It’s a total disaster the way public money is wasted in the NHS

Paquerette · 11/01/2021 17:54

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER

A Swedish friend told me that in Sweden (popularly supposed to be a socialist Utopia) everyone (inc. her dad who was 90 at the time) pays - albeit a small amount - for prescriptions, and for visits to GP and A&E. plus ditto for the ‘board’ element of hospital stays. There is an annual cap on prescription charges for those who need a lot.

We need something similar here but I can’t ever see any govt. daring to do it. The Tories never will - it’d be electoral suicide - and Labour wouldn’t have the guts - so wedded to the sacred cow of ‘free at the point of use’.

Also, everyone I know who’s worked for the NHS has moaned about waste, inefficiency, and too many managers.

This. All countries with amazing health care systems have some form of personal insurance system requiring payment for all healthcare, even gp appointments. This includes Germany, which everyone keeps trying to compare us to.

The NHS needs massive reform, not more money. Too much waste, and too many people not bothering to show up to appointments.

Everyone should be able to book and cancel even hospital appointments online. GP gatekeeping wastes gp appointments too.

Definitely wouldn't trust a Labour government to be any better. Their 25 year PFI hospital deals when they were last in Government are one of the reasons that many hospital's finances are so screwed.

Angrymum22 · 11/01/2021 17:54

Unfortunately the NHS’s current situation is a direct product of its fundamental aim, which is to provide free care at point of access. Even in other countries with a basic state funded healthcare service they are supported by private healthcare. A ceiling on funding means that as long as you can afford it you can access full healthcare.
What limits life is when funds run out. The NHS does not restrict funding so we have ended up with a very vulnerable elderly population.

Iceskatingfan · 11/01/2021 18:02

I’m a doctor and I’ve wondered for the past decade why people haven’t noticed/aren’t angry at what’s happening to the NHS at the hands of the Conservative governments. Doctors and nurses have been screaming into the void about it for years. And no, it hasn’t always been the same including under Blair, things were a damn sight better under Blair, I actually enjoyed my job then. I would say we all still had the time and energy for compassion and to strive for clinical excellence in our care at that stage, we’d put our heads together over coffee to try to figure out a particularly tricky patient etc, now we are all just firefighting all the time and trying to keep our head above water and barely have time to grunt at each other exhaustedly as we hand over the bleep - even pre COVID. A few years ago when we had trollies piled up in corridors and a major crisis when people died during what was actually a very mild flu season, I thought maybe the general public will now start to demand better.

What I have observed unfortunately is people HAVE noticed and ARE angry but unfortunately they are directing their anger in the wrong place, having swallowed the Conservative lies line hook and sinker - that there is plenty money but it’s just horribly mismanaged etc. It’s gaslighting. A bit like telling the mother who has fallen on hard times and is trying to get by on benefits that she wouldn’t need to use food banks if she just managed her money better and there would be no point in increasing her benefits when that is what would really improve quality of life. I’ve seen the people in charge of local NHS units tearing their hair out nearly in tears wondering what else we can cut at this point and admitting that we are going to have to compromise patient safety just to make ends meet as the budgets set by government for what they want delivered are so unrealistic. They are talking about cutting all fertility treatment for example at my local unit, already you have to jump through a lot of hoops to qualify and now they are starting to say they simply can’t afford to offer IVF to anyone ever.

The amount of people I hear slagging off doctors and nurses and the NHS in general is gobsmacking. I’m not going to sit here and pretend it’s perfect, it’s not, primarily due to starvation of funding and appalling treatment of healthcare workers by government (plus an entitled attitude from many patients). I’ve literally never in my working life seen morale lower, and I suspect healthcare professionals will be quitting in droves in this country once we are past the crisis situation of the pandemic. It used to be really rare to meet a fellow doctor who didn’t love their job, now it’s rare to find someone who isn’t desperate to quit. It should be sobering but the general public seem absolutely blind to it.

And unfortunately I do believe this government are driving the NHS into the ground deliberately. They want the public to think how shit the NHS is so that nobody resists their plan to bring in US style private health care. What really concerns me Ian that I’m already hearing the general public voice support for this plan, saying they wish we had private health care like the US and not the NHS that we have. People are falling right into that trap. I don’t blame people for wanting and expecting something better from a health service but they are really placing blame at the wrong feet and buying into solutions which will bankrupt them. Mark my words, everyone will miss the NHS when it’s gone and there will be no bringing it back.

I agree with others here that a French style system or similar could work but that is not what the Conservatives have planned for us all unfortunately.