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Here we go again Woman arrested for sitting on a bench.

394 replies

MercyBooth · 10/01/2021 00:53

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9130133/Police-told-fine-Covid-rule-breakers-just-ONE-verbal-warning.html

OP posts:
Foreverlexicon · 10/01/2021 18:40

Under section 50 of the police reform act, if police suspect you to of committed antisocial behaviour, you must provide your name and address. Failure to do so is grounds for arrest.

So assumably, when they spoke to her, she kicked off (antisocial behaviour) then refused to provide her details = arrest.

nostaples · 10/01/2021 18:41

Now putting a load of police officers in a van and driving them about to pick on unsuspecting women drinking coffee while walking, there's a really good way of spreading the virus.

User158340 · 10/01/2021 18:46

The BLM protests had no impact on the spread of Covid interestingly

A lot of people stopped taking it seriously after that though. Mass protests up and down the country when till that point there had been no gatherings like that and people had largely stayed close to home.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 10/01/2021 18:47

putting a load of police officers in a van and driving them about to pick on unsuspecting women drinking coffee while walking, there's a really good way of spreading the virus

TBF they may have been doing other things as well, but the same surely applies to a group of police sitting in close proximity inside a cafe, as in the link I posted earlier - however there was practically no comment about this

Odd, that ...

PusheenLove · 10/01/2021 19:01

[quote MercyBooth]@PusheenLove Yes Adam Wagner on Twitter

twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1348219271260876802?s=20[/quote]
What was the lady doing illegally?

nostaples · 10/01/2021 19:03

@Puzzledandpissedoff 'hough it's also intriguing that I can find no such reassurance about lack of Covid spread following anti-lockdown protests'

That's just a stupid point. If the very large BLM protests didn't have any consequences then very clearly a few women on benches isn't going to!

dogsaremypeople · 10/01/2021 19:04

@Topseyt sounds like you are the one spreading hysteria ffs

nostaples · 10/01/2021 19:06

@User158340 I don't think there's any evidence to support that assertion.

However, there IS evidence to suggest that people stopped taking the rules seriously after Dominic Cummings, who is supposed to be an upholder and maker of the law, breached them.

Because that can only be seen as hypocrisy and undermining.

nostaples · 10/01/2021 19:11

It's the combination of his position which should be beyond reproach in relation to the law and the unfairness of the law not being applied to him where it has been very roughly applied to ordinary people that has undermined public confidence in 'the rules'.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 10/01/2021 19:18

If the very large BLM protests didn't have any consequences then very clearly a few women on benches isn't going to

Exactly, and that was my point
If there's been no measurable effect after massive meet-ups (of whatever kind) then it's a bit hard to swallow that a few women together are quite such a risk - even allowing for the new strain

hoodathunkit · 10/01/2021 19:22

Contrary to popular paranoia it is very rare to spread the disease outdoors (and the whole picking it up from a park bench scenario is a nonsense).

Scientists and epiemiologists have always said that the virus is harder to transmit outside than inside. Also cold weather preserves the virus and UV rays degrade it so there was always more concern about transmission during the colder months.

Concern about outdoors transmission during winter, especially with the new variant is not in any way popular paranoia.

There is a risk of formite / passive vector transmission from any surface that an infected person touches, sneezes or coughs on. Park benches are not immune or excluded from the category of formites. The idea that the virus could be transmited via benches is not nonsense, at all and this is why benches have been taped up to prevent people sitting on them.

Just because indoor spaces are higher risk does not mean that outdoor spaces are not risky

nostaples · 10/01/2021 19:23

Ah, yes @Puzzledandpissedoff apologies.

I mean, I personally wouldn't be encouraging it but neither is it where I would be putting my resources if I were in charge.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 10/01/2021 19:25

No apologies needed, @nostaples - it was probably my fault for not expressing myself clearly Smile

nostaples · 10/01/2021 19:29

@hoodathunkit there's got to be common sense.

The risk of picking up Covid from a park bench is infinitesimally small.

And if you really, honestly think that's a risk too far then you basically can't do anything - open letters or parcels, shop for food in a supermarket, take your shoes off, handle money, pick up a stick for your dog, touch a door handle...

If you're extremely clinically vulnerable, fair enough.

For most people, that would be completely unnecessary.

I've got a friend who is at that point. He's lost his job and he's so paranoid he's effectively not left the house for months. He's asthmatic but not extremely vulnerable and only in his early 40s. Statistically, he's so so much more at risk of all sorts of things - depression, obesity (which ironically would make him more vulnerable to Covid), long term effects of poverty...

nostaples · 10/01/2021 19:34

Quite honestly I think it's evil of the government to encourage people to turn on each other and scapegoat the vulnerable as a distraction from its incompetence and the structural, political and social reasons for the spread of Covid.

nostaples · 10/01/2021 19:36

Also @hoodathunkit just because there is a theoretical possibility of picking up Covid from a park bench, does not mean that IS how it is being spread. We know that it's mixing of households and workplaces where it is being spread. On the scale of things park benches are irrelevant.

hoodathunkit · 10/01/2021 19:42

The risk of picking up Covid from a park bench is infinitesimally small.

This simply isn't true

Prior to the new strain researchers demonstrated how long the virus remained infectious in relation to fomites

It depends on the surface

It starts to degrade immediately on copper but can stay infcetious for up to 4 hours.

On steel and plastic it can stay infectious for days.

There are so many variables involved such as

did an infected person touch the surface or sneeze snot all over it?

Is the bench made of steel? copper? wood? plastic?

How long after the infected person touched it or sneezed on it did the next person sit down?

What parts of their clothes or body or bag or other stuff touched the infected bench?

What were that person's clothes made from?

Did the person change when they got home or did they sit on their bed or put their bag on their bed?

Did they pull their sweater that had touched the bench over their head when they got home?

This is not paranoia, this is exactly how viruses get transmitted.

The infinitesimally small thing is not the risk, it is the virus. It is tiny. This is why it is so easy to transmit and why we all have to do our best to be as careful as we can be

nostaples · 10/01/2021 19:43

'This is not paranoia, this is exactly how viruses get transmitted.'

It really isn't bless you.

The evidence is not telling us that at all.

I do worry about people who must go through life basically terrified of everything.

idontwanttodiet · 10/01/2021 19:44

I cannot believe that so many of you are just lapping up what the Daily Fail has reported.

Do you honestly believe that this woman was arrested just for 'sitting on a bench'?

Seriously, I didn't think anyone could be that dumb. Turns out I was wrong.

Yes, I'm looking at you @MarkRuffaloCrumble, @Seasaltyhair, @Treatscatscrave, @HarrietOh, @Pootle40, @TheGreatWave, @MaxNormal...and the rest of you who have posted as such, you know who you are.

MercyBooth · 10/01/2021 19:45

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/10/lockdown-sceptic-covid-police-tough-crackdown-help

he lockdown sceptics, it seems, are in abeyance. Opportunistic media voices who made a habit of denying the necessity of restrictions and the severity of the pandemic are still here, but noticeably quieter. Only 16 MPs, split between the Tories and the Democratic Unionist party, voted against the government’s latest measures. Bursts of dissent about restrictions and the truth of the virus itself will doubtless continue, as proved by the awful spectacle of those people outside London hospitals, seemingly dragged from the subterranean depths of social media into the everyday world, chanting “Covid is a hoax!” But with the crisis entering this new, frightening stage, the mood has inevitably changed.

At the same time, many things that ought to jangle our nerves are as clear now as they were in 2020. The Johnson government has an awful attitude to basic parliamentary scrutiny – and, in Priti Patel, a home secretary who draws on a deep well of authoritarianism and nastiness. Its current Covid regulations are so complicated that they are reckoned to stretch to just under 50,000 words, which makes any coherent understanding of them, let alone questions of enforcement, much more difficult than many people realise

A few of the simpler rules are close to inexplicable, while others may have profound implications for civil liberties that could easily outlast this crisis. For example, though protests were allowed under previous regulations, subject to risk assessments and anti-Covid measures being put in place, any conventional demonstration is now effectively illegal. Lockdown rules may allow collective acts of religious worship, but being involved in organising other gatherings of more than 30 people invites a fixed penalty of £10,000. So far, this restriction has largely been applied to anti-lockdown protests, which has kept concerns about it to the fringes. But sooner or later, it may acquire a lot more political prominence.

One cultural aspect of the Covid era seems to be particularly pronounced: swingeing, judgmental attitudes towards anyone who might seem to be breaching the rules, usually made worse by an apparent refusal to understand just how impossible lockdown is for millions of people. There is a very modern tendency for issues to be understood in terms of caricatures, so that some people’s idea of the typical lockdown breaker might be a conspiracy theorist ranting about Bill Gates, or a reckless hedonist at an illegal rave.

But a more representative archetype might be a woman in low-paid work, confined with her family in a tiny flat, meeting a friend in order simply to stay halfway sane. Put another way, in a society as full of insecurity, poverty and mental illness as ours, some people will inevitably be forced to step outside the rules. It’s something that ought to be met with nuanced and sophisticated thinking rather than with the language of blame and crackdowns – which, in any case, always fall much harder on some parts of society than others.

And then there are the achingly predictable responses to this new phase of the crisis from certain sections of the police. Last year, the initial lockdown saw incidents of officers failing to distinguish between the law and mere guidance, the use of surveillance drones and roadblocks, and such breathtaking suggestions as shoppers’ trolleys being spot-checked for nonessential items. This time, there has been a noisy reaction to the case of Derbyshire police – who have form here – fining two women for driving five miles for a walk, and telling them their hot drinks constituted “a picnic” (a decision now being reviewed). From Bournemouth, footage emerged over the weekend of a woman complaining she was being arrested for “sitting on a bench”, and another being accused by police of the non-offence of leaving her home twice in a day, a transgression they said had been captured on film.

To no one’s great surprise, both Matt Hancock and Priti Patel seem to approve. Meanwhile, the Metropolitan police has announced that officers will be issuing penalties to people “not wearing masks where they should be and without good reason”, while people outside their homes can expect the police “to be more inquisitive as to why they see them out and about”. The police and crime commissioner for the West Midlands, David Jamieson, wants officers to be able to gain entry to people’s homes if they are suspected of breaking Covid regulations

The lack of alarm about these moves is remarkable. In May 2020, the civil rights pressure group Liberty published analysis of the thousands of fixed penalty notices that had been issued to people in England and Wales under Covid legislation. It showed that black and minority-ethnic people were 54% more likely to have been fined than those classified as white.

Last week, I spoke to Katrina Ffrench, a London-based campaigner who has done extensive work on stop and search, and is now the director of a new organisation called Unjust, focused on policing injustices. In 2020, she told me, she had seen plenty of evidence that the police “didn’t think young black men could be out buying milk, or being teachers or other key workers”. Black and brown people, she added, “needed to explain being out and about more than their white counterparts”. Now, her fears now seemed even greater: “There are people who haven’t seen their families for weeks, but they’ll have been stopped by the police three times. That doesn’t feel right.”

If the authorities have concerns about public compliance, the most effective approaches will not involve endless crackdowns, but action on basic facts that still scream out for attention. The predicament of homeless people – not only rough sleepers, but people forced to stay wherever they can – is a huge issue. This country’s miserable rates of statutory sick pay remain in place. Three million self-employed people have been denied the government help given to others in work, and are in the midst of a crisis of both economic security and mental health

Meanwhile, the aspects of immigration legislation that ensure thousands of people have no recourse to public funds, and are thereby denied access to any social safety net, continue to ruin lives. If these things were at last addressed, we might find there is less need for clunky and punitive enforcement. With a little persuasion, the police might feel able to get back to tackling actual crime.

How the British government is trying to crush our right to protest
Gracie Mae Bradley
Read more
Running through all these things are basic human truths that the stridency of pro-lockdown posturing too often ignores. Civil liberties matter. It is in the nature of our humanity that people need at least some solace and support, and either the rules themselves or the way they are enforced must leave room for that. We also have to be vigilant about simple prejudice, and the warped ways that so many laws and regulations are enforced.

To understand these things does not make you a lockdown sceptic. It actually highlights something incontestable: that if the methods used to try and control Covid-19 were more reflective of social reality than the eternal British tendency to act tough, we might do a better job not just of managing this crisis, but finally putting it to rest.

OP posts:
nostaples · 10/01/2021 19:49

There is zero evidence of transmission via park bench, very little evidence of transmission via random outdoor encounter. During lockdown supermarkets are the most common hotspots.

Also, it's air not surfaces that is spreading infection.

www.medicaldaily.com/most-covid-19-infections-spread-air-not-surfaces-456172

nostaples · 10/01/2021 19:52

@idontwanttodiet she was arrested for refusing to give her address in order to be given a fixed penalty offence for breaking Covid guidance

These women were given fixed penalties for having a coffee while walking.

metro.co.uk/2021/01/09/lockdown-penalties-reviewed-by-police-force-after-women-fined-on-walk-13876233/

This case is much more clear cut and the police are 'reviewing it'

nostaples · 10/01/2021 19:54

And that is a view shared by a police officer 'former Durham Police chief constable has said the decision to fine the two women at the remote spot will have ‘damaged’ the public’s perception of how the laws are enforced. Mike Barton told BBC Breakfast: ‘I think personally Derbyshire will row back from this position, but sadly there will be some damage done here because for the public to comply with the law, they have got to think and see the police are acting fairly. It’s called procedural justice. ‘If police aren’t seen to be acting fairly, the public won’t comply. It’s all very well some people in Whitehall sabre rattling and banging the table that the police are going to enforce these rules, that doesn’t bring about compliance. The public seeing fairness does.’

Read more: metro.co.uk/2021/01/09/lockdown-penalties-reviewed-by-police-force-after-women-fined-on-walk-13876233/?ito=cbshare

Twitter: twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: www.facebook.com/MetroUK/'

Goodbye2020Hello2021 · 10/01/2021 19:56

Well well well... here we are:
‘Bench arrest video stage managed by anti-lockdown protestors’.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-dorset-55609185