A thought experiment about children

[Chessie678]

Imagine that pre-covid there is a mother with a 6 year old son.

She becomes very scared of the child getting or spreading “diseases”. For this reason she keeps the child inside most of the time and does not let him play with other children. She tells him to stay away from others in case he infects them and makes him change his clothes and scrub his hands whenever he has been outside. She doesn’t take him on trips and the only time they go out is to walk around their local neighbourhood. He is not allowed to attend any clubs or play sport.

The mother’s behaviour escalates and she begins to keep her son off school for long periods of time, citing the risk of “diseases”. She stops contact with the child’s grandparents and cousins, telling the child that he might murder his grandmother if they see her. If he gets ill she locks him in his room and brings food to the door.

Sometimes she will send him back to school for a period but makes him wear a mask and tells him not to touch anything or get too near another child.

Having worked with vulnerable children in the past, I think this scenario would far exceed the threshold for social services intervention and suggests severe mental health issues in the mother.

Clearly the rationale for how we are treating children at the moment is different in that the threat from covid is much more severe than the threat from the “diseases” which the mother is concerned about but the treatment of the child is essentially the same in either case.

People on here often say that children are resilient and adaptable and I agree that they can be. But the idea that subjecting a child to this sort of treatment could make them stronger is rose tinted at best – more often abuse in childhood leaves scars which carry through into adulthood.

My view is that the end doesn’t justify the means so far as children are concerned i.e. there are some things which you should never do to children however noble the goal is. I am very concerned that we have started to normalise the current restrictions – just today I have seen posters on here claim that it doesn’t matter if children don’t have any social interaction with other children or any education for months at a time.

I’m aware that many mothers on here will have done everything they can to mitigate the impacts of covid on their children so I’m not trying to say that all children are being abused or will be scarred by this but I do think that what we are doing to children as a society is completely unethical and will have serious long-term effects for many.

@Umbongoumbongo999

Imagine this as a thought experiment:

Children didnt go to school, they had the pressures of school, conflicts, suffocating structure reduced. They did PE with Joe Wicks instead of being picked last for the school team. They weren't shipped to 18 different activities per week. They got to spend time with mum and dad, and their siblings.

They read books, and played imaginative games, and built complex worlds on animal crossing and Minecraft. They baked, and did crafts. They got really good at jigsaws.

They became experts at using technologies, to learn, play and connect with their friends and family. They went for lots of walks. They dropped care packages for their neighbours and applauded key workers from their doorsteps.

They didnt see their grandparents, but dad explained that was important to keep granny safe. They wore masks if they were over the age of 11, and they were old enough to understand that the masks helped to reduce transmission of the virus that noone could see, but everyone knew about.

They washed their hands. To be fair, they should have been washing their hands anyway, but still. They knew that all of the changes in their lives were part of a national effort to keep them, and their communities safe.

This thought experiment is just as true as the OP, and just as false.

This isn’t a thought experiment, it’s my kid’s lives. I’d be genuinely amazed if they were storing up future damage. I realise mileage varies enormously and am not belittling people who are struggling with mental health issues, but to suggest that it is a foregone conclusion that all children are suffering is patently false.

I agree with you OP. I don't have kids but lots of my friends have children and I can see how some of them have changed in the last 12 months. There are definitely signs of increased anxiety and nervousness and some of them getting very emotional over small things. One of them has even started ticking. I watched one of them who was only about 5 with tears streaming down her face saying "why won't nanny touch me?". It's heartbreaking.

I don't know what the right thing to do is but there definitely needs to be more discussion about how we mitigate the emotional damage done to children during this pandemic.

Agreed, OP.

My five year old daughter is not legally allowed to meet another child outside because children aged 5 and over are included in the rule of only 2 people meeting up. Because she can’t go out without me, it’s therefore illegal for her to see even one of her friends. She’s an only child. We have possibly months more of this. I’d like someone, anyone, from this thread who claims children are ‘resilient’ to look me in the eye and tell me this won’t cause lasting damage.

It’s an interesting way of thinking about it
And makes me feel glad that I send my Kidd back to school/activities as soon as they could go back so they’ve had some periods of football club, dance etc in between lockdowns. And that we did go on holiday in the summer, and we did ‘eat out to help out’. Basically doing as much as we can within the rules at the time.
And not talking about it that much infront of the kids

Surely it falls to us as parents to do what's best for our children within the current restrictions resulting from circumstances beyond our individual control. Why, for example would any responsible parent tell their child they may kill their Grandma if they see her? If your child was sick would you really lock them in their room leaving food outside a few times a day?

I see what you're saying OP, but it's a difficult time and we have to be the grown ups here so our children don't grow up 'scarred' by living through Covid times.

I agree with op but hopefully people arent telling their kids they will kill granny , are they? My ex is a drama llama and started all this business with ds but I intervened because i recognized you cant tell kids things like that. As ex mil is vulnerable and ex dp is her support bubble ( shes a widow) we decided to cut physical contact with them both for a while but explained in a child appropriate way.
My son is 6 and its hard to get the balance right , but the current measures are the lesser of 2 evils.

You can’t compare the two situations as they payoffs aren’t the same. Obviously things are different in the context of different situations. If you change a variable then the choice becomes different.

I see this type if comparison a lot on threads about sending kids to school and it just doesn’t work.

I suppose if you take the position that we shouldn’t take any measures to prevent health services being overwhelmed, let everyone do what they want but hope you don’t need medical intervention. Survival of the fittest, let the frail die in their homes. Then I think you can say okay, we’re damaging our children. If you think that curbing the liberties of everyone for a year is a price to pay for maintaining the functioning of core vital servies that are essential for society then your comparison means nothing.

Both thought experiments are real. However not everyone has more than one child. Even with the second scenario, the only child is extremely isolated.

My dd (12) is an only child. I have allowed her to see another child from her class inside, which is against the rules as the parent and I are both in a relationship. But we chose wisely. Ie they wfh. I cannot work for health reasons. Only my dh going to work and all observing distancing. Neither seeing family. I am chronically ill / disabled / had major surgery a few months ago thus needing support others would not. We have terminated this arrangement for now. The figures are too high.

The thing is you don't present it to your child like it is presented in the op.

Yes, hand washing before eating and when coming inside etc and avoiding touching face. Yes social distancing, not mixing and staying inside to a degree but the line is that there is a nasty virus going around which we don't want spreading around because some people might get very poorly. Absolutely no need for the personalisation as in 'You spread the virus'.

Leave off the social media and news to an extent and build up some normal routines as much as possible for the child's sake. Remain positive. Otherwise anxieties can escalate. Which would then create the situation the op has described.

And my teenager had to self isolate. They enjoyed it! Meals on a tray, school on Teams, messages going back and forth between friends. They felt waited on hand and foot! We were summonsed for all the snacks drinks etc and had to knock on their door to deliver them!

Not saying it is very difficult in some circumstances but I don't believe in creating problems when there any.

It isn't very difficult

What has struck me in the OP Is the mother is creating a situation and forcing that onto her children.

Here it is a situation that we can as much as possible protect our children from. Yes it is rubbish yes it is horrible but we can be there for our children. Over CHristmas we played board games, we make sure we have at least an hour of family game time etc

I have kept things as normal as possible for my daughter, going out as much as possible when rules allowed, she actually had a lovely summer with her friends, it helps now to cope with lockdown as we actually have some lovely memories from last year.

I agree with you op. What society is inflicting on our children is abuse.

I'm not downplaying the risk of Covid, but children are bearing the brunt of it. I'm sure a poster will be along shortly to tell me that their children are having a fabulous time, but as we are told, it's not about the individual. Children on the whole are suffering.

Society is sick, but not just with Covid.

I have kept things as normal as possible for my daughter, going out as much as possible when rules allowed, she actually had a lovely summer with her friends, it helps now to cope with lockdown as we actually have some lovely memories from last year.

I've kept things as normal as possible too. I certainly don't scare mine with tales of killing granny. We had a lovely Summer and have got out and enjoyed life while we could.

You make a really good point op. With schools closing again this week my 5 year old was left on her own in the next room for several hours whilst I was in back to back work meetings and calls. I feel like it's almost neglect. Thousands of parents are in the same position. I understand how serious the virus is, but I dawned on me the other day that she has been living under restrictions for almost a fifth of her life and it made me really sad.

I have been very concerned about my children’s mental health for all of these reasons. They’ve stopped asking to go out now. They know they’re not allowed in shops so they don’t ask. It makes me incredibly sad.

I'm sure a poster will be along shortly to tell me that their children are having a fabulous time, but as we are told, it's not about the individual. Children on the whole are suffering.

It can be both.

Day to day, it is possible that for lots of people who are able to make the best of things for this time to be lovely for children in many ways. If home is a safe and nurturing place spending time there is valuable. Spending more time outdoors and leaning about nature (instead of organised activities) can be very valuable too, school can be stressful for children sometimes so this time spent away from it can be relaxing.

However, it is true that missing formal education and social interactions with peers and extended members of the family will means this generation of children have a very different experience to previous generations.

I think to survive it helps to 'accentuate the positive' wherever in order to get the full benefits of those positive aspects. Giving up doesn't help anyone. And before you think I'm being trite and have never had any hardships in my life you are wrong, I survived cancer being diagnosed the same time as my mother who didn't survive was one event (amongst others) which was particularly challenging.

I explain to my six year old that that the virus would be unlikely to make him poorly but that it could be carried by him to older people who would get poorly. It's not rocket science to explain to a child why we are keeping the community safe.

I agree with the premise of the OP and am extremely concerned about our children.

Death anxiety, which is what this all boils down to, is a really truly destructive force. Nietzsche talked about this in some depth, but the essence is that if people are unable to accept the suffering and adversity of life and understand that death is part of them and is coming to them and their families, then a mediocre life is what happens. Herds of mediocre people living in ‘safety’ with no libido for life.

The matrix offered this analogy too - the red pill or the blue pill - take on life or stay small and safe

We are literally quoting to our children ‘stay safe’

It leads nowhere good IMO

I think a fundamental difference between this situation and children being sent away from home during WW2 is that the basis of a healthy childhood is being with your primary caregivers in a safe and loving environment. My dad suffered PTSD from being in a residential hospital with a bone disorder from around age 6 until 10. He only saw his parents on Sundays.

My husband’s mother lived with her parents and one sibling on an isolated farm (South Africa) and was homeschooled until she went to boarding school at around age 10 and she says her life was perfectly happy until she had to go away to boarding school! Her only bad memories are of the coldness of the boarding staff. She did very well academically and won academic prizes in high school despite being only homeschooled in her early years!

You've signed your Do Not Attempt to Resuscitate or Ventilate then @hamstersarse?

And we're not telling our children stay safe - we're saying protect society. Very different thing.

There are a lot of parents in the first lockdown that were so scared they didn’t even let their children out in the garden, now some of those children have been locked away since March. You also have single parents say with 3 children living in a flat, it must be hell and very stressful. Then there is abusive families, it must be awful, so many terrible situations for these poor children that they will have to deal with, so yes it will effect children, some more than others.

@hamstersarse Fabulous post. We are all as a culture choosing the smaller, mediocre life.

We seem to have defined ‘living’ as simply ‘not being dead’. It is indeed sad for today’s children and teenagers.