A thought experiment about children

[Chessie678]

Imagine that pre-covid there is a mother with a 6 year old son.

She becomes very scared of the child getting or spreading “diseases”. For this reason she keeps the child inside most of the time and does not let him play with other children. She tells him to stay away from others in case he infects them and makes him change his clothes and scrub his hands whenever he has been outside. She doesn’t take him on trips and the only time they go out is to walk around their local neighbourhood. He is not allowed to attend any clubs or play sport.

The mother’s behaviour escalates and she begins to keep her son off school for long periods of time, citing the risk of “diseases”. She stops contact with the child’s grandparents and cousins, telling the child that he might murder his grandmother if they see her. If he gets ill she locks him in his room and brings food to the door.

Sometimes she will send him back to school for a period but makes him wear a mask and tells him not to touch anything or get too near another child.

Having worked with vulnerable children in the past, I think this scenario would far exceed the threshold for social services intervention and suggests severe mental health issues in the mother.

Clearly the rationale for how we are treating children at the moment is different in that the threat from covid is much more severe than the threat from the “diseases” which the mother is concerned about but the treatment of the child is essentially the same in either case.

People on here often say that children are resilient and adaptable and I agree that they can be. But the idea that subjecting a child to this sort of treatment could make them stronger is rose tinted at best – more often abuse in childhood leaves scars which carry through into adulthood.

My view is that the end doesn’t justify the means so far as children are concerned i.e. there are some things which you should never do to children however noble the goal is. I am very concerned that we have started to normalise the current restrictions – just today I have seen posters on here claim that it doesn’t matter if children don’t have any social interaction with other children or any education for months at a time.

I’m aware that many mothers on here will have done everything they can to mitigate the impacts of covid on their children so I’m not trying to say that all children are being abused or will be scarred by this but I do think that what we are doing to children as a society is completely unethical and will have serious long-term effects for many.

I agree

The mother in your story has MH issues - which impacts the child in a negative way.

Making your child wear a seatbelt whist they watch the tv is not ok - there is no danger and so the parent is not a good parent.
Making your child wear a seatbelt whilst in a car is ok - there is a danger and this makes you a good parent.
The actions are the same but the scenarios make it acceptable or not.

Making your child wear a mask and socially distance is just being a good parent. Like sticking a needle in your child to give them a vaccination.

I agree. Humans are not that resilient and adaptable, it always comes out in the end.

Do you realise that the pandemic is real don't you?

I agree. We will look back on this in the future and be shocked at what we did (or rather were forced to do)

There have been posts on here about people locking children in their room while self-isolating.

There are parents who locked their kids in their rooms pre-COVID and they’ll be parents who lock their kids in their rooms post COVID unfortunately. You can’t blame a pandemic for bad parenting.

To all those shouting down the OP, I don't think denying mental health issues makes them go away. It may be true that there is no alternative to the way our kids have to live right now, and that this is the best we can do during a pandemic, but it doesn't mean we need to deny that damage is being done, even though it is 'for the greater good'. Surely we should be acknowledging and accepting it is a problem and talking about what we do to help, what we can put in place now and in future. It's not catastrophizing about the future, it's about being sensible to minimise damage. The leaps and bounds in not brushing mental health issues under the carpet, not forcing a stiff upper lip from people, are all being undone by this pandemic.
I would be interested to hear what some child psychologists think we should be doing to minimise impact - perhaps the damage is minimal for most kids but it could be huge for some, let's discuss it.

Imagine a child knowing that a small sacrifice from them and their family contributes positively to their surrounding community. Imagine they understood that they are part of a wider world of strangers whom all have to live together on this amazing blue green spinning rock and that their small contribution can help towards giving the medics and researchers some time to use amazing advanced science to beat a virus.

A virus, a tiny thing that causes misery but with expertise and patience human knowledge can counteract the damage. Imagine a child is inspired by this. Imagine you taught them the history of disease and previous cures and how superhuman it has been to achieve a vaccine in under 12 months. Imagine how their brains could dare to dream that when they were bigger the possibilities are still unimaginable.

Imagine.

Depends how you spin it.

Ours want to study medicine to become doctors and be part of medecins sans frontieres because of this pandemic because "it's wrong that some babies don't have access to basic medical care"

So yes imagine what they could achieve given an unusual society situation when there is no option but to realise we are all connected.

Or we can sulk at home because we can't hug a cousin for a bit.

Imagine.

"I agree. Humans are not that resilient and adaptable, it always comes out in the end."

Yes. If not in the 1st generation, then the second. I am thinking of a few outing examples.

I am genuinely interested in this and how the extremes differ. I think here on mumsnet we all are doing our best to make things as bright as possible for our children who have lost all of their social lives. There are things we can do like zoom birthdays. Socially distant walks. Rainbows/dancing/music/language lessons on zoom. School is a big one, but it is still parents who have the biggest impact. We just come on here and shed our doom and gloom.

I don't think the two situations are comparable at all and the current restrictions are not abusive if the child lives with a loving family.

In a home where are child has unnecessary restrictions placed on them in the context of an anxious mother consumed by her own fears and anxieties - yes that would cause concern. The two scenarios are completely different.

Yes, it's not going to be good for kids, but what does the alternative look like? Hospitals overwhelmed, death and bereavement on a massive scale. Friends dying, family dying. What kind of impact do you think that would have on kids?

Sometimes there are no good choices. Lockdown is the best out of the options. It's up to parents to make it as positive as possible and minimise the impacts.

@frozendaisy we've used a similar approach to you. Yep, it's hard, but sometimes you don't get a choice and you have to do the hard thing for the greater good. We've highlighted the amazing work the scientists have done in understanding this virus and how much doctors and nurses have sacrificed and how hard they have had to work. We've tried to get her to think about how she can help others, so we've written letters, bought friends presents and so on. She found online learning excruciating (we're in Victoria, Australia) and she has struggled, but we've really tried to keep it in perspective of what's happening worldwide.

If covid was as dangerous to children as it is to older people would you change your tune?
We should be grateful that our children are hardly touched by this disease. The end is in sight so hang in there and try not to dramatise.

I hope you are not still working with vulnerable children because surely would say the huge gap between your thought experiment and the current situation? There is a world of difference between a 6 year old being fed a constant drip of fear about the world by his mother and isolated from everyone because of her severe mental health issues and having to remain home as much as possible with supportive parents who love you and try to explain as best they can what is happening without it being too scary, awful or age in appropriate. Surely in your scenario you would see that this would warrant further support and involvement - anyone trying to self isolate a 6 year old in their room or telling them they will kill granny is an unfit parent anyway. But, what is your suggestion OP? That we ignore a pandemic? That i ignore the rules because my toddler would love to go to a cafe or soft play? That the nhs is overwhelmed and then its not just about covid but not being able to get treatment for basic things? Of course most people wish this situation wasn't happening but it is.

I agree with you. A friend of my dd has been withdrawn from school indefinitely as she struggled to cope when they returned in September. It was quite heartbreaking to see how panicked she was going back into a classroom setting wearing a mask and gloves, refusing to sit near anyone or touch anything that had been touched by other people.

Telling a child a hug might kill is on the parents. Choosing to still fear, not information, is on the parents.

You can accept the current situation is necessary but also accept that for some children and in particular for some of the children that are not NT, that the situation is very distressing.
We can all help those children and their families by not whinging about those children being given school places or that those children are allowed more freedom to do things out of the house etc.
Also not blaming their parents for the child not coping. Some children cannot have any understanding of what is going on. Sometimes a loving family is not enough to prevent distress

Huge false equivalency. We are in a pandemic, taking sensible measures to avoid the NHS being overwhelmed. We are not a bunch of paranoid delusional nutjobs withdrawing for society for no reason. What a batshit post, OP.

It’s a thought experiment- the point is to try to get you to think about the possible consequences of our actions by thinking about how we might feel about doing something like this in ‘normal’ times. Yes times aren’t ‘normal’ but that doesn’t mean what we are doing is the best or right way to go about things. We can and should be free to discuss (especially as we are not free to do much else)

@Worst

Your thought experiment is flawed.

A mother throwing her child from a moving vehicle would be abusing the child.

A mother throwing her child from a moving vehicle because it was about to plunge of a cliff, is protecting the child.

The difference is the reality of the risk.

This ^

@SD1978

Telling a child a hug might kill is on the parents. Choosing to still fear, not information, is on the parents.

And this ^

I feel very lucky in that my kids are 4 and 2 so don’t understand what’s happening, they can still go to nursery and play normally with other kids And equally so at the playground. We also see lots of family members every week outside, in line with the guidance so feel very lucky.

@noblegiraffe

My DC’s experience of the pandemic, while pretty crap, doesn’t resemble that of the OP at all.

Snap.

Reported

I feel this is spreading false understanding and misinformation by drawing a parallel between protecting your child and communities from real risk and a scenario where covid isn’t real. COVID IS REAL.

@Bing12 the censorship is getting ridiculous