A thought experiment about children

[Chessie678]

Imagine that pre-covid there is a mother with a 6 year old son.

She becomes very scared of the child getting or spreading “diseases”. For this reason she keeps the child inside most of the time and does not let him play with other children. She tells him to stay away from others in case he infects them and makes him change his clothes and scrub his hands whenever he has been outside. She doesn’t take him on trips and the only time they go out is to walk around their local neighbourhood. He is not allowed to attend any clubs or play sport.

The mother’s behaviour escalates and she begins to keep her son off school for long periods of time, citing the risk of “diseases”. She stops contact with the child’s grandparents and cousins, telling the child that he might murder his grandmother if they see her. If he gets ill she locks him in his room and brings food to the door.

Sometimes she will send him back to school for a period but makes him wear a mask and tells him not to touch anything or get too near another child.

Having worked with vulnerable children in the past, I think this scenario would far exceed the threshold for social services intervention and suggests severe mental health issues in the mother.

Clearly the rationale for how we are treating children at the moment is different in that the threat from covid is much more severe than the threat from the “diseases” which the mother is concerned about but the treatment of the child is essentially the same in either case.

People on here often say that children are resilient and adaptable and I agree that they can be. But the idea that subjecting a child to this sort of treatment could make them stronger is rose tinted at best – more often abuse in childhood leaves scars which carry through into adulthood.

My view is that the end doesn’t justify the means so far as children are concerned i.e. there are some things which you should never do to children however noble the goal is. I am very concerned that we have started to normalise the current restrictions – just today I have seen posters on here claim that it doesn’t matter if children don’t have any social interaction with other children or any education for months at a time.

I’m aware that many mothers on here will have done everything they can to mitigate the impacts of covid on their children so I’m not trying to say that all children are being abused or will be scarred by this but I do think that what we are doing to children as a society is completely unethical and will have serious long-term effects for many.

I am really heartened to read some of the intelligent and thoughtful responses to this unbelievably poor thought experiment....far better than I could write.

My ds shielded from March to August, and from October half term, and is obviously shielding now. He has stayed home with his sister's, and us his parents. He has learning disabilities and complex needs as a result of a rare genetic condition. He has anxiety, but as this is mostly based around school, he has been happier and more physically well than he has been for ages. He did return to school in September, but unfortunately he was ill after about a week with a virus (not covid), so had to self isolate for a week, and then his bubble burst when there was a case in his class. His Dr decided it would be safer to be home.
I have left my job, his school sent work packs, he had 4 video calls a week with school to see his classmates and have speech sessions with a TA. We have had support from his CAMHS learning disability caseworker and clinical psychologist. His paediatrician and gastronterologist have called, his GP calls regularly to discuss the best way forward.
We go for walks (fairly rural), we cook everyday, we play in the garden. He speaks to his grandad on facetime, his grandma sadly died in June. He plays Fortnite whilst facetiming his friend.
We have talked about Covid, handwashing and being tested with him, using resources aimed at young people with learning disabilities. He is happy and well and loved.
Covid is real, it is fucking awful, but it is our job as the grown ups to make the right decisions with the help of advice from scientists and professionals, assess the risks and support our children. It is also our job to try and help the children and families who are struggling, and who are vulnerable (many of whom were vulnerable pre pandemic), rather than using them as the reason to not take measures to lower cases and curb the spread if the virus.
I do think that children here should be able to play outside, as they are in Scotland, as I really feel for only children.
But on the whole I agree with this..
So, dear OP, I suggest you ask to have this thread pulled because you're doing people harm - and maybe you'll be ashamed of that one day.

@DameFanny

You've signed your Do Not Attempt to Resuscitate or Ventilate then *@hamstersarse*?

And we're not telling our children stay safe - we're saying protect society. Very different thing.

I don’t think it is different. ‘Protect society’ is about a ‘safe society’. In many ways that’s an even worse message than to ‘stay safe’ individually. It might sound lovely but there is a level of delusion in that message - in that ‘we can make the world safe’. The world isn’t safe and lovely and risk free, and telling our children we can do that creates a skewed view of life, possibly increasing general anxieties 🤷‍♀️

The world isn’t safe and lovely and risk free, and telling our children we can do that creates a skewed view of life, possibly increasing general anxieties 🤷‍♀️

Horrifying them won't help, though. Even Vikings had a belief system which involved a pleasurable afterlife!

It's about managing risk @hamstersarse. So we don't let our 3yos shin up the ladder because they like to climb - unless we're right underneath and they know they're not allowed without an adult that's said ok and will stay that close.

Yes we can't make the world safe. The death rate is 100% in every case. But it's a lot easier to enjoy life without a broken back or Long Covid. These measures are temporary - even if we don't know how long that is, it's like wearing a cast until a bone's mended. And like taking off a cast, we may need some physio to restore full mobility, but that's ok because we'll have a leg to exercise with, rather than a mashed-up mess that was unrestrained because 'freedom'

I haven't read through the whole thread but I think it ridiculous to tell kids they might kill granny. Adults need to talk to kids in an age appropriate manner.

@PronkWine

I explain to my six year old that that the virus would be unlikely to make him poorly but that it could be carried by him to older people who would get poorly. It's not rocket science to explain to a child why we are keeping the community safe.

I've had to work very hard to explain to my teenagers that granny makes her own decisions and is choosing to live life as well as possible, go out to the shops, cafés etc and therefore they're no more risk to her than the risk she is choosing for herself. They're conscientious kids who want to do the right thing and the media message has been strong. We all need Matt Hancock with his don't kill granny soundbite and it's been repeated over and over. As I said earlier, I'm exhausted by trying to mitigate for the messaging, the isolation, the constant threats of more lockdowns and more separation from their peers, trying to find ways to tempt them out of the house for fresh air and exercise and so on.

@pensivepigeon

The world isn’t safe and lovely and risk free, and telling our children we can do that creates a skewed view of life, possibly increasing general anxieties 🤷‍♀️

Horrifying them won't help, though. Even Vikings had a belief system which involved a pleasurable afterlife!

I agree that’s one of the problems we have. With the breakdown of religion, and no afterlife explanation, death anxiety is much more inevitable

How on earth is it the people who are saying "actually, our kids are doing really well and are happy" who are the overly anxious ones in this situation?

The latest government advice is to act as if we all have the virus. That would make the keeping children at home scenario absolutely rational and logical at this time.

However, I agree that this has not been necessary all the time since March, particularly across the summer.

I see the two sides of this thread very differently to some, obviously.

To me there are those saying : This is necessary and short term. It's the job of the adults to make it as bearable as possible and we should do this by having positive attitudes.

And then there are some saying: This is a disaster for our children and it's all unnecessary and caused by people being anxious for no reason.

To me, it's the second group who seem anxious and more likely to adversely affect their children.

So what do people want? Schools and clubs/sports etc to be open as normal? School children were shown to be the major driver of infection in the last quarter of 2020. Over 1300 people died of covid yesterday, 60,000 infected, hospitals running out of capacity to treat the seriously ill.

But hey, the dead and seriously ill are most likely elderly and/or frail - they've had their time .

I'd love to be on here in 40 years time, in another pandemic, when the parents of today's school age children are in their 70s and 80s and see how willing they are to sacrifice themselves for the good of other people's children. Or perhaps put yourselves in the shoes of a parent with a child with multiple health vulnerabilities.

I suppose it depends on how you have reacted to this yourself and how scared you are. My dc have never seen fear from me, I have explained that they are young and healthy and will be fine but that we need to follow the rules. People who are old or ill including family members are scared of the virus because they could get sick so they need to give people a lot of space while out and about on walks etc so that they feel safe. They have each other for company at home, plus tech to keep in touch with school friends online and over the online, have attended outdoor sports and Zoom clubs and school when things opened back up again even to the point they were able to have a weekend away and some semblance of a birthday celebration. They’ve missed school and seeing their grandparents but I’ve also been wfh so we have spent more family time together and none of us have become ill. Lockdown has been what you can make of it in your circumstances, I’m hopeful that I’ve been able to shelter my dc from the worst of it but I’d imagine those with toddlers and teenagers have had a much more difficult time of things than I have.

@reprehensibleme

So what do people want? Schools and clubs/sports etc to be open as normal? School children were shown to be the major driver of infection in the last quarter of 2020. Over 1300 people died of covid yesterday, 60,000 infected, hospitals running out of capacity to treat the seriously ill.

But hey, the dead and seriously ill are most likely elderly and/or frail - they've had their time .

I'd love to be on here in 40 years time, in another pandemic, when the parents of today's school age children are in their 70s and 80s and see how willing they are to sacrifice themselves for the good of other people's children. Or perhaps put yourselves in the shoes of a parent with a child with multiple health vulnerabilities.

Well let's put it this way

Kids don't go socialising with the vulnerable generally

So whilst they might carry it and spread it, the inward spread to the vulnerable is happening with adults not following the rules... many of those adults, teachers

France have decided to keep schools open

It’s not an open and shut case that Opening Schools Kills Granny

France have masks in classrooms from the age of 6.

I'm really surprised that it seems British people would rather closed schools than kids wearing masks.

I'd be all for rotas, social distancing and masks. I know of places in the world where that seems to have worked to keep cases low. Bit late for us now, though.

@IloveJKRowling

France have masks in classrooms from the age of 6.

I'm really surprised that it seems British people would rather closed schools than kids wearing masks.

I'd be all for rotas, social distancing and masks. I know of places in the world where that seems to have worked to keep cases low. Bit late for us now, though.

Bring on the masks, I mean, they are used to seeing them by now, it's not even odd anymore - get them back to school where they belong, not becoming hermits at home living in fear of every germ

It’s such a spectrum.
I’ve four kids, and a rural house with land. We are so fortunate. (I am shielding though, so also highly anxious about four kids when school was open). The kids have hugely different reactions to lockdown. My oldest loves online school, probably did well out of last years GCSEs. I’m not particularly worried about him, but his world has shrunk. Long term, I think he will be more insular because he tends to gravitate that way.
My mid teen is trying so so hard. Hates online school, dyslexic and struggling with hours on screen. He loves physical lessons like art and woodwork and drama, but can’t see the point in them online. But I know he will be the first to bounce back. He is naturally resilient and reframed things constantly to the positive.
My two little ones miss their friends, but have each other and are just seeing it as longer holidays. Their school is being great at age appropriate learning, (yesterday they were running around outside with my phone on zoom doing a nature hunt, the school cook did a cookery lesson, they are learning ukulele etc)
BUT, I know absolutely this isn’t typical. My boat through this isn’t my cousins, who lives in a flat and is single working with one kid to homeschool. Her child is really worryingly depressed, has given up online school already, doesn’t want to speak to his friends, turned his clock upside down and sleeps too much, doesn’t want to eat healthily, etc. She has to keep her job, they need it.
I think family and individual resilience, and also the different boats we sail through this in make everything different. For some families in years to come this will be a story to tell and not much more. For others it will be the point they lost their income and the kids dropped out of their Alevels, or developed a life changing eating disorder. Or lost a parent to COVID. All these realities are happening at once, just like evacuees during the war (I hate the comparison though) some flourished away from the pollution and poor diet, others were left with mental health challenges that still resonate through the generations today.
We need to try and build resilience where we can in our families, schools and communities, and look out for each other. There isn’t a community wide answer for what’s best for individuals unfortunately, we just have to do our best and look out for each other. The scenario given is dramatic, but will be real, and worse will be real for some. And lots will be unscathed, some will flourish. The usual factors will dictate who’s who. Life is not fair. Not ever.

Kids don't socialise with the vulnerable generally @whittystitties? Isn't half the hand wringing on this site about children crying because they can't hug granny?

(Not to mention all the parents with auto immune conditions otherwise in the prime of their lives)

@DameFanny

Kids don't socialise with the vulnerable generally *@whittystitties*? Isn't half the hand wringing on this site about children crying because they can't hug granny?

(Not to mention all the parents with auto immune conditions otherwise in the prime of their lives)

Then those parents have a choice to make and stay home. Those healthy and without risk have to continue living. Otherwise it's just a race to the bottom, equality by lowest common denominator

It's not a choice to make and stay home if you need to work to pay for the home @whittystitties. Some of those people are keeping the NHS going. Or were people born with e.g. type 1 diabetes doomed from the start and should be grateful for thruppence ha'penny in benefits and really shouldn't have bought that big house with mortgage if they hadn't had a bloody crystal ball to see that people they might have thought were perfectly reasonable would start arguing for them to lock themselves away or face a natural cull?

No, I don't have type 1 diabetes, but lots of people do and it's not a fucking choice they made at any point in their lives

I’ve heard so many argue that what we’re doing to children is damaging.

I’d like to see someone address how damaging it would be if society was allowed to get on with it, shield the vulnerable, let everyone else crack on - because this seems to be what people are calling for.

The death rate may be low and mainly affect the elderly and the vulnerable, but these are still people’s friends and family.

Those needing to be in hospital, in ICU or on a general ward, aren’t necessarily those old, vulnerable people.
The virus - you know, the real one that is affecting most countries in the world - stands to affect children in far more traumatic ways than the current controls - family/loved ones being hospitalised, the hit on the economy would be far worse if there weren’t attempts to keep numbers lower. People have accidents and illnesses outside of Covid - what will they do if they cannot access treatment?

In September to December term many children went through multiple bubble closures, which is likely to be less predictable and more unsettling than a concentrated effort to limit spread.

Covid deniers seem to spread so much more anxiety to others, the constant arguments against masks, quarantine, sensible safety measures, the manipulation of statistics to suit their agenda. What do you tell your children? Those I know who hold the OP’s view seem to create a far more damaging environment for their children.

You can be careful without telling your children that they’re going to kill granny.
I'm so sick of the stupidity that Covid is bringing out.

Then those parents have a choice to make and stay home. Those healthy and without risk have to continue living.
Ok if this is going down the well worn path of focused protection and shield the vulnerable - let the rest of us crack on (Is there an absolute of without risk in Covid?)...
a) who are the vulnerable?
b) how do we protect them?

Whitty, what about NHS workers, carers, supermarket staff who have children and have to mix with more vulnerable people as part of their very necessary work? I think children are being harmed as much, if not more, by being told their education /mental health is being adversely impacted than by their parents just helping them to knuckle down and get on with it. There are obviously vulnerable children who don't have the parental support they need so resources should be aimed at helping them as much as possible.

@whittystitties have you seen the list of conditions that makes someone a higher risk?
Should they all shield?

Your scenario doesn't mention that children will be aware that it is happening to everyone. In your scenario, it is the one child but in life at the moment, it is all children. Most children are having zoom calls or emails to friends so know they are at home too. They are having video calls from their teacher so know they are the same as everyone else. The child in your scenario would be isolated and assume that everyone else is back in school and seeing each other.