A thought experiment about children

[Chessie678]

Imagine that pre-covid there is a mother with a 6 year old son.

She becomes very scared of the child getting or spreading “diseases”. For this reason she keeps the child inside most of the time and does not let him play with other children. She tells him to stay away from others in case he infects them and makes him change his clothes and scrub his hands whenever he has been outside. She doesn’t take him on trips and the only time they go out is to walk around their local neighbourhood. He is not allowed to attend any clubs or play sport.

The mother’s behaviour escalates and she begins to keep her son off school for long periods of time, citing the risk of “diseases”. She stops contact with the child’s grandparents and cousins, telling the child that he might murder his grandmother if they see her. If he gets ill she locks him in his room and brings food to the door.

Sometimes she will send him back to school for a period but makes him wear a mask and tells him not to touch anything or get too near another child.

Having worked with vulnerable children in the past, I think this scenario would far exceed the threshold for social services intervention and suggests severe mental health issues in the mother.

Clearly the rationale for how we are treating children at the moment is different in that the threat from covid is much more severe than the threat from the “diseases” which the mother is concerned about but the treatment of the child is essentially the same in either case.

People on here often say that children are resilient and adaptable and I agree that they can be. But the idea that subjecting a child to this sort of treatment could make them stronger is rose tinted at best – more often abuse in childhood leaves scars which carry through into adulthood.

My view is that the end doesn’t justify the means so far as children are concerned i.e. there are some things which you should never do to children however noble the goal is. I am very concerned that we have started to normalise the current restrictions – just today I have seen posters on here claim that it doesn’t matter if children don’t have any social interaction with other children or any education for months at a time.

I’m aware that many mothers on here will have done everything they can to mitigate the impacts of covid on their children so I’m not trying to say that all children are being abused or will be scarred by this but I do think that what we are doing to children as a society is completely unethical and will have serious long-term effects for many.

All kids are not in the same boat.

@firstimemamma What do you mean by the toddler not seeing a child at all?
See this makes me feel sick as our dd 2,6 years old last really played with her friends in March. She’s seen children in the playground etc but we haven’t all seen one another as a few are vulnerable, I’m worried sick it will affect her

@Umbongoumbongo999 👍🏻💐

Nice try OP but I think you need to think a little deeper on this one. Is forcing a child to wear a car seat abuse? No it's not because it's appropriate for the risk. Is forcing a child to wear a seatbelt and sit in a seat in a house for hours every day abuse? Yes because it's inappropriate.

Children are neither so delicate or stupid. Damage happens when they realise they are being treated unfairly for a situation.

Eh?
,,,,, telling the child that he might murder his grandmother if they see her. If he gets ill she locks him in his room and brings food to the door,,

This doesnt happen unless parent needs some help
Op tell your child"be careful be cause of the germs we dont want granny to get sick"

No need to lock your child in their room just carrefor them as you would do usually if they sick

Op please go talk to gp via zoom
You are very anxious and need help

What a bizarre thread. This is a horrific situation because we’re living through a raging pandemic. We can try to make it easier on our kids by being loving, attentive & honest with them. We can’t make it go away by wishing though (I’ve tried)

I agree too op...dramatic post but ultimately needed to make people actually see what we are doing to our dc

I agree with you OP, there are some good retry screwed up people on MN that much is clear

@Allispretty

I agree too op...dramatic post but ultimately needed to make people actually see what we are doing to our dc

Are you doing it to your DC? I’m not.

I do worry about the impact this period of time will have on children of today. My LG is 2 and I am hoping I have made the past 10 months as 'normal' as I possibly can for her. One thing i refuse to do though is tell her not to get too close to other children or anyone for that matter. If I think she is too close to someone (which is very rare) I will distract her so she doesn't realise I'm purposely trying to minimise her contact with others. I feel for primary and secondary school children immensely (and their parents).

@Spikeyball yes I agree which is why I said “mainly” meaning more in the scenario that op writes about in normal circumstances that would be a clearly more verily anxious mother stopping her child having a normal life

But in current times the child is doing the same as millions of other children all over the world will be due to being in a pandemic

@chloworm

For the people who say it's only for a short while, I actually think (for those who persist with wartime analogies) that like the war, many children and adults will be coming out of this with PTSD. There will be inadequate therapy/mental health support for all those that need it.

In a child's life it really isn't a short time though, it's a large chunk a year or more

Overly anxious *

"But in current times the child is doing the same as millions of other children all over the world will be due to being in a pandemic"

That doesn't mean they are all in the same boat. Children are not all coming from the same starting position so what is happening wil effect children differently and the disadvantaged will become more disadvantaged.

A huge, huge part of how most NT children cope with this pandemic is how they see it modelled by the adults around them.

Children need to know about this pandemic, but it is our job as parents to model resilience and positivity, even if that’s not what we’re feeling. I know it is much harder for some people to do this than others due to various reasons. In this pandemic, we have to do what we have to do. But we can frame this with positivity and calmness or we can frame it with anxiety and fear.

@Coriandersucks

But in your scenario that behaviour isn’t necessary hence the need for concern. We are in the middle of a fucking pandemic

exactly - you are describing a mother acting on an unfounded worry, but covid is a real danger.

Your "thought experiment" makes as much sense as saying a mother in a war zone should not make her child sleep in a bomb shelter, on the grounds that it would be unreasonable in peace time

I agree with noblegiraffe even in the pandemic I dont know any parents who are treating their children like that

When DD got ill in March with it I certainly did lock her in I stayed with her every night through the cough because she needed me. They have attended clubs etc as and when current guidelines allow

We have been doing outdoor playdates etc again within the guidelines.

The parent you are describing is either having to be that strict due to shielding or is actually incredibly anxious and escalating outside of a pandemic.

Although many seem to agree this is happening which makes me sad

just today I have seen posters on here claim that it doesn’t matter if children don’t have any social interaction with other children or any education for months at a time
Of course it matters. But it’s the lesser of two evils when the alternative is thousands of people dying and society potentially grinding to a halt because too many people are ill at the same time.

You're trying to compare a hypothetical situation with very low risk to one that that is real and saw 1300 deaths today - and still going up.
So please don't be silly.

Thanks for your comments. It is an extreme scenario but I think we could do with more discussion about the ethics of all this.

@inquietant
I’m not saying that covid doesn’t exist or that it isn’t very serious. My scenario is about whether it is ethical to do something which harms children (or at least harms many children) in order to achieve a greater good. It’s an ethics question about whether you should do something which would usually be considered wrong if the intention is good.

Another analogy - let’s say there was a shortage of blood in blood banks. Would it be ethical to force children to donate blood once a week to remedy this. The child would undergo some discomfort and some minor risk but lives might be saved. What about donating bone marrow or even a kidney? In medical ethics terms any of these things would be considered wrong even though on a utilitarian view live s might be saved. We are subjecting children to restrictions which in many cases damage their mental and physical health in order to possibly save lives.

My view is that there are some lines which you shouldn’t cross even if great good could result from the harm caused. It’s a complex ethical question and I don’t expect everyone to agree with me.

@AspergersMum

Children were evacuated for their own safety and not the safety of others and it was optional for parents. Many chose not to evacuate their children. Current restrictions aren’t optional. And as others have said downthread, evacuation could be very traumatic and cause long-term harm.

I don’t doubt that having a difficult experience as a child can, in some cases, make someone more resilient or creative etc as is apparently the case for Margaret Atwood. But no one would say abusing a child is fine because it will make them tougher later. Even if it’s true it doesn’t make it right.

Mothers because we are on mumsnet but of course fathers too.

@Pipandmum and those who said that the issue is about how we talk to children

I agree to an extent. Parents can make a huge difference to children’s ability to deal with this in the way they communicate. But children are still being given the message by the whole of society that they need to stay away from others in order to “keep safe”. The message about lockdown being about NHS capacity rather than personal risk is quite subtle for young children - a lot of adults don’t get it. And they are still living under very severe restrictions however you communicate to them.

@MiniTheMinx
I think the collective trauma point is relevant and may make it easier for children. However are we just inflicting trauma on millions of children rather than a few and, if so, is that really better? You could take the example of corporal punishment in schools - this was common for a while. Maybe children who experienced it while it was common suffered less than people whose parents now discipline them in this way but in my mind it doesn’t make it right that schools ever did this.

Thanks for the point about The Ones Who Walk Away. I’d read it the other way round. Is it right to intentionally do something which damages a child to help someone else? Interesting though.

@Ginkypig
I think you have a point about context except that what we are doing to children is mostly to protect others rather than them. Children won’t benefit from the vaccine initially so it is fairly likely that they will get covid at some point and if they do they probably won’t be very ill. In the war children were partially protecting themselves. And I do think we have a choice about what we are doing to children, although I know others will disagree. If you have limited food you have to ration. You don’t have to ban a child from going to school or playing with a friend in a park because you have limited healthcare.

If nothing else I was trying to illustrate that what we have done to children would usually be considered very damaging and shouldn’t be minimised with talk about resilience and adaptability.

@WishingHopingThinkingPraying
Car seats are a bit different in that they are mostly to protect the child and not others and they don’t, to my knowledge, damage a child’s physical or mental health? I think it’s unfair to compare a car seat to not having an education or social interaction with other children for 6 months.

@Embracelife
The “kill your granny” thing was something said by the government so an older child who watches the news could easily have come across it. I agree that parents absolutely should not be saying this or anything close. There have been posts on here about people locking children in their room while self-isolating. Apparently that's what test and trace tell you to do to symptomatic children. I would never do anything like this to my child (who is a baby anyway).

@Spikeyball I know . And I agree. I thought the op was more trying by to point out how absurd the situation would be if a mother decided to take all these precautions and that social services would be involved etc . So am just saying that the difference is most people are taking these precautions for a valid reason and so it’s not comparable .

I don’t agree that we are all in the same boat, but we are all in the same storm. We’re all subject to the same rules. So I do think there’s something different about everybody living through the same situation vs op's scenario of one isolated child. Not denying that this is very, very tough for our young people though.

Today 22:39 Novousername

@firstimemamma What do you mean by the toddler not seeing a child at all?
See this makes me feel sick as our dd 2,6 years old last really played with her friends in March. She’s seen children in the playground etc but we haven’t all seen one another as a few are vulnerable, I’m worried sick it will affect her“

Please don’t. Our daughter is 26 now, an early years teacher with a beautiful child of her own. We lived very rurally. Other than thrice yearly meet ups with cousins, she didn’t meet other children until she was 3. We delighted in her until then and she was confident and very, very happy and fulfilled. Parents are what matter during the early years.

My view is that there are some lines which you shouldn’t cross even if great good could result from the harm caused
You need to weigh the harm caused by missing school and compare it to the harm caused by Covid spreading unchecked. Kids will lose relatives to Covid. Businesses will close, food won’t get delivered, the electric and water will go off, there’ll be no police, no healthcare, the country will break down because too many people are off work with Covid at the same time. In comparison it’s not a big deal to miss a couple of months of school. We need to control the number of people who have Covid at any one time so the country keeps running.

There have been posts on here about people locking children in their room while self-isolating.

I have seen posts where people have said their older children stayed (by choice) in their room when they are isolating - I dont believe I have seen a single person saying they locked them in.

I think your 'thought experiment' has a fair bit of hyperbole.

Have you thought how all that might read to someone whose child has had to shield during this pandemic?