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A thought experiment about children

337 replies

Chessie678 · 08/01/2021 20:16

Imagine that pre-covid there is a mother with a 6 year old son.

She becomes very scared of the child getting or spreading “diseases”. For this reason she keeps the child inside most of the time and does not let him play with other children. She tells him to stay away from others in case he infects them and makes him change his clothes and scrub his hands whenever he has been outside. She doesn’t take him on trips and the only time they go out is to walk around their local neighbourhood. He is not allowed to attend any clubs or play sport.

The mother’s behaviour escalates and she begins to keep her son off school for long periods of time, citing the risk of “diseases”. She stops contact with the child’s grandparents and cousins, telling the child that he might murder his grandmother if they see her. If he gets ill she locks him in his room and brings food to the door.

Sometimes she will send him back to school for a period but makes him wear a mask and tells him not to touch anything or get too near another child.

Having worked with vulnerable children in the past, I think this scenario would far exceed the threshold for social services intervention and suggests severe mental health issues in the mother.

Clearly the rationale for how we are treating children at the moment is different in that the threat from covid is much more severe than the threat from the “diseases” which the mother is concerned about but the treatment of the child is essentially the same in either case.

People on here often say that children are resilient and adaptable and I agree that they can be. But the idea that subjecting a child to this sort of treatment could make them stronger is rose tinted at best – more often abuse in childhood leaves scars which carry through into adulthood.

My view is that the end doesn’t justify the means so far as children are concerned i.e. there are some things which you should never do to children however noble the goal is. I am very concerned that we have started to normalise the current restrictions – just today I have seen posters on here claim that it doesn’t matter if children don’t have any social interaction with other children or any education for months at a time.

I’m aware that many mothers on here will have done everything they can to mitigate the impacts of covid on their children so I’m not trying to say that all children are being abused or will be scarred by this but I do think that what we are doing to children as a society is completely unethical and will have serious long-term effects for many.

OP posts:
bookworm14 · 09/01/2021 16:01

There is so much pretence around all of this. Of course women are affected worse than men by school closures, and of course children’s mental health is going to be affected by being prevented from seeing their friends and wider family for long periods. We can accept the restrictions are necessary without pretending they aren’t damaging.

Chessie678 · 09/01/2021 16:09

@HazeyJaneII
I think that you are (perhaps willfully) misunderstanding my point about isolation camps. It is an example of a policy that is so extreme that basically no one would support it, even if it was very effective at suppressing covid. It is meant to demonstrate that there is a limit on what we would all do to suppress covid because the harm caused by the restriction becomes too great. It isn't something that I think will happen.

If you think that the current restrictions are ok for children in the context, where do you think we should stop? SAGE is calling for further lockdown restrictions at the moment. People on here have talked about closing playgrounds and nurseries, stopping support bubbles for under 1s and removing more key workers' children from schools. There is a presumably a point well before isolation camps where you don't think we should go any further even if we are not controlling covid so where is it?

OP posts:
ParlezVousWronglais · 09/01/2021 16:20

You’re setting up a straw man. Children are not going to isolation camps or anything remotely like that. They’re mostly at home, warm, fed and with their parent/s.

Bollss · 09/01/2021 16:31

@IloveJKRowling

Was there really part of the UK where children were forced to stay inside for a year? Why wasn't the media reporting it?

Summertime kids should definitely be outside, mud kitchens, sticks, streams.

Yeah, he was although some of us unfortunately did have to work and didn't have endless time to paddle in streams Hmm that still doesn't mean he had other children to socialise with which is the issue isn't it? Minimise all you like. It's pathetic.
HazeyJaneII · 09/01/2021 16:31

I don't know @Chessie678 - but I do not think thought experiments like yours help, in the same way that the poster who accused me if being like a Nazi sympathiser was basically saying that if I am happy to follow xxx rules and restrictions on freedoms, then what other rules and restrictions on freedoms would I be willing to follow.... I am nor sure what the purpose of your thought experiment is?

Also as someone who has largely kept one of their children at home, through shielding, I find your extreme portrayal of the restrictions that children are under rather hyperbolic and insulting.

pensivepigeon · 09/01/2021 16:38

Yeah, he was although some of us unfortunately did have to work and didn't have endless time to paddle in streams that still doesn't mean he had other children to socialise with which is the issue isn't it? Minimise all you like

Ah, well this is the crux of a lot of challenges.

Try and be positive, problem solve and make the most of things and you are accused of 'minimising'. No we are not! I think it is downright insulting to those in really, really dire situations to overly dramatise not so dire ones so if at all possible I do believe in being keeping calm, being positive and I don't like venting. The people who overcome challenges in life don't do it by constantly complaining.

Bollss · 09/01/2021 16:54

No no, saying it wasn't that bad is minimising it. You have no fucking idea what it was like for other families. You don't think I tried to make it a positive experience? Honestly? You really think that's my only problem?

Fuck me. Some people just don't have a fucking clue.

Bollss · 09/01/2021 16:55

The people who overcome challenges in life don't do it by constantly complaining.
They don't do it by belittling others and being judgemental on the internet about something they know sweet fuck all about, either.

Underhisi · 09/01/2021 16:58

"The people who overcome challenges in life don't do it by constantly complaining."

I doubt you have understanding of the challenges some families are facing. Families who accept things have to be as they are but are having a bloody awful time.

Forgetmenot157 · 09/01/2021 16:58

I see all the points you are making... If at the beggining we knew how long this would last I think compliance would be awful.

However... We're here now. And close to the finish line. We have to see it through now otherwise all the hardship we and the children have gone through will have been for nothing.

pensivepigeon · 09/01/2021 17:04

Fuck me. Some people just don't have a fucking clue.

Don't underestimate what I've a clue about. I've experienced hardship. I'm a cancer survivor whereas my mother wasn't. We were diagnosed the same year to name just a couple of the difficult experiences in my life. I'm not underestimating that it is bad for some families. Just pointing out that being positive as much as possible is a valid way of coping.

Bollss · 09/01/2021 17:32

@pensivepigeon

Fuck me. Some people just don't have a fucking clue.

Don't underestimate what I've a clue about. I've experienced hardship. I'm a cancer survivor whereas my mother wasn't. We were diagnosed the same year to name just a couple of the difficult experiences in my life. I'm not underestimating that it is bad for some families. Just pointing out that being positive as much as possible is a valid way of coping.

It is a way of coping but it doesn't make it stop. It doesn't make the effect less on my child.
pensivepigeon · 09/01/2021 17:39

It is a way of coping but it doesn't make it stop. It doesn't make the effect less on my child.

It doesn't make it stop but it does minimise the effects. Every second you can spend being happy about something else, dare I say enjoying things is time spent not being unhappy about the problem. This does makes the effects less on the children involved as they. When I was undergoing treatment for breast cancer, i came to the realisation that if I fell apart the impact of my illness had the potential to be so much worse. It was vital for my D.C. to see me still able to enjoy life and enjoy seeing ending time with them.

pensivepigeon · 09/01/2021 17:40

Spending time with them.

trulydelicious · 09/01/2021 17:52

@Chessie678

Are you aware that the whole world is in the middle of a pandemic?

Your whole opening post reads as if you had no clue TBH

Nonamealoud · 09/01/2021 17:55

100 percent agree with you op.

Bollss · 09/01/2021 17:58

@pensivepigeon

It is a way of coping but it doesn't make it stop. It doesn't make the effect less on my child.

It doesn't make it stop but it does minimise the effects. Every second you can spend being happy about something else, dare I say enjoying things is time spent not being unhappy about the problem. This does makes the effects less on the children involved as they. When I was undergoing treatment for breast cancer, i came to the realisation that if I fell apart the impact of my illness had the potential to be so much worse. It was vital for my D.C. to see me still able to enjoy life and enjoy seeing ending time with them.

The effects on my child were mainly caused by being isolated away from others. I spent all day every day with him. We did a million activities we spent the most of the summer before I went back to work in the garden, it wasn't doom and gloom and I certainly didn't and have never expressed my frustration at the situation to him but that didn't stop him flinching every time a stranger came near him. It didn't stop him worrying when we went back to nursery if he was getting to close to other children. It did not stop him telling me when he started school there was "too many friends". If my positivity alone could solve this it would be solved but this is point blank nothing I could have sorted out myself. Nothing. And I won't do it to him ever again.
pensivepigeon · 09/01/2021 18:07

TrustTheGeneGenie, it will get better though. My D.C. had a terrible time at one nursery. I ended up moving them. You'd never guess talking to them now, in 6th form and looking forward to university, hopefully. People can recover from all sorts of trauma.

Bollss · 09/01/2021 18:11

@pensivepigeon

TrustTheGeneGenie, it will get better though. My D.C. had a terrible time at one nursery. I ended up moving them. You'd never guess talking to them now, in 6th form and looking forward to university, hopefully. People can recover from all sorts of trauma.
Oh yeah, I know it'll get better, and to an extent it has got better, but I imagine we'd be back to where we started if I isolated him again. I also know that these things have a habit of creeping out when you least expect it. What I'm saying is, it's been really hard for some of us, and I'm sick and tired of people telling me it's nothing, it's down to shit parenting, being too negative etc etc. It's not. It's down to the isolation. I tried my best and it wasn't good enough. It was awful, and I think that should be accepted. I don't want to hear how everyone else's child thrived and if I'd only done x y z so would mine have, because frankly, it's bollocks.
bookworm14 · 09/01/2021 18:19

Parental positivity can never fully mitigate the effects of isolating a child totally from their peers, and it’s nonsense to suggest otherwise. Once again for the hard of hearing: my daughter cannot legally meet with a single other child. I can be as positive as I like but it is still going to have an effect.

pensivepigeon · 09/01/2021 18:20

I also know that these things have a habit of creeping out when you least expect it. What I'm saying is, it's been really hard for some of us, and I'm sick and tired of people telling me it's nothing, it's down to shit parenting, being too negative etc etc. It's not. It's down to the isolation. I tried my best and it wasn't good enough. It was awful, and I think that should be accepted. I don't want to hear how everyone else's child thrived and if I'd only done x y z so would mine have, because frankly, it's bollocks.

Who says it wasn't good enough? Shit happens, you pick your self up and brush yourself down and keep on going. That's a good life lesson in itself. You're still here. My point is dwelling on the bad things doesn't help in the long run. Distraction and still being able to enjoy some good things is an important way of coping. And then if the good experiences are more vivid than the bad ones, that is what is remembered ultimately.

pensivepigeon · 09/01/2021 18:22

I can be as positive as I like but it is still going to have an effect.

But it needn't be a wholly negative one. A large amount of children will be in the same boat at least so it's not like she will be the odd one out. They'll all move back into getting used to socialising with peers again together.

Embracelife · 09/01/2021 18:37

Most adults and the children will get thru this

They are not being chained to cots in an orphanage or institution

They are not being starved unless parents are doing that.

Those with families who are not abusive will be ok

The ones being fed and engaged with by parent will be ok .they can catch up on education. Access to bbc on tv and daily exercise dance around bit will go a long way.

No one talked in govt about any child "murdering " anyone..it s up to parents to explain in child friendly way about not giving virus to granny which could make her sick

It is hard.
If you doing your best it s good enough

pensivepigeon · 09/01/2021 18:44

And I actually think it's very difficult, if you have experienced hardship, to have people say you'll never get over it. It's like saying you might as well give up any hope of happiness now! I think stories of people's recovery and resilience are very important. Not in the sense that we all have to live up to some unachievable goal but rather it is possible to have very difficult things happen in life but then go on to find happiness in a way that is meaningful to you,

trulydelicious · 09/01/2021 18:57

I understand the need to rant and vent frustration. We all do it.

But acting like one has been living on another planet for 10 months and all of a sudden being startled and worried as if it were unclear why these measures (and harder ones even in other countries) are being taken is odd.

What are you trying to achieve OP? Maybe try and spell out what alternatives have you thought of?