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Covid

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A thought experiment about children

337 replies

Chessie678 · 08/01/2021 20:16

Imagine that pre-covid there is a mother with a 6 year old son.

She becomes very scared of the child getting or spreading “diseases”. For this reason she keeps the child inside most of the time and does not let him play with other children. She tells him to stay away from others in case he infects them and makes him change his clothes and scrub his hands whenever he has been outside. She doesn’t take him on trips and the only time they go out is to walk around their local neighbourhood. He is not allowed to attend any clubs or play sport.

The mother’s behaviour escalates and she begins to keep her son off school for long periods of time, citing the risk of “diseases”. She stops contact with the child’s grandparents and cousins, telling the child that he might murder his grandmother if they see her. If he gets ill she locks him in his room and brings food to the door.

Sometimes she will send him back to school for a period but makes him wear a mask and tells him not to touch anything or get too near another child.

Having worked with vulnerable children in the past, I think this scenario would far exceed the threshold for social services intervention and suggests severe mental health issues in the mother.

Clearly the rationale for how we are treating children at the moment is different in that the threat from covid is much more severe than the threat from the “diseases” which the mother is concerned about but the treatment of the child is essentially the same in either case.

People on here often say that children are resilient and adaptable and I agree that they can be. But the idea that subjecting a child to this sort of treatment could make them stronger is rose tinted at best – more often abuse in childhood leaves scars which carry through into adulthood.

My view is that the end doesn’t justify the means so far as children are concerned i.e. there are some things which you should never do to children however noble the goal is. I am very concerned that we have started to normalise the current restrictions – just today I have seen posters on here claim that it doesn’t matter if children don’t have any social interaction with other children or any education for months at a time.

I’m aware that many mothers on here will have done everything they can to mitigate the impacts of covid on their children so I’m not trying to say that all children are being abused or will be scarred by this but I do think that what we are doing to children as a society is completely unethical and will have serious long-term effects for many.

OP posts:
LemonSquirtInTheEyeOfLife · 09/01/2021 12:59

What an absolutely ridiculous thread. By the OP's logic, it would not be "ethical" to treat kids suffering from cancer with chemotherapy or radiotherapy, on the basis that they will suffer side effects & it may not work.

hamstersarse · 09/01/2021 12:59

It’s impossible to have a reasonable discussion with such manufactured outrage at everything. There is no misogyny. You could just as easily say it’s anti-men

bookworm14 · 09/01/2021 13:00

I will reiterate my point from earlier in the thread. My DD is 5. She can’t go out by herself, and she’s not attending school. She is therefore legally banned from meeting with a single other child. She has no siblings. Is this, or is this not, likely to have a detrimental effect on her mental health?

TheSeaMonkeyHasMyMoney · 09/01/2021 13:01

@SillyUnMurphy

Probably children didn't like being sent to live with complete strangers during the war either, but needs must. Plus it is different when we're all in the same boat and the children understand that everyone has to make changes temporarily, until enough people are vaccinated to make the country safer again. Do you think? My dad was evacuated during the war abs never fucking recovered - even though it was with relatives. As a result he had minimal schooling (evacuees were not allowed to be taught with ‘normal’ kids), absolutely fuck all relationship with his dad and was horribly bullied by his aunt, cousins and neighbouring kids. When he turned 13 he escaped back to London and took his chances. Please don’t minimise the damage of evacuation to a whole generation of children during the war.
But... The thing that did the damage here was the abusive relatives. That wasn't the evacuation process' fault?

The abusers are 100% responsible there.

YoBeaches · 09/01/2021 13:01

OP you haven't balanced your thought experiment with all the things that mothers, parents and families ARE doing, and so have reached a conclusion that the outcome is negative prematurely.

Start again.

IloveJKRowling · 09/01/2021 13:08

OK, I'm not keen to give this government any credit but....

playgrounds are open - so kids can go and see other kids play
childcare bubbles are allowed - admittedly mainly so parents can work - but you can also have one to enable child socialisation within the rules
Preschoolers are exempt from restrictions - so that any two parents meeting up for a walk can bring all their preschoolers with them within the rules.

Children are allowed out of the house.

It's simply not true that they're completely locked away and there HAS been some learning compared to the last lockdown (when no childcare bubbles or playgrounds open)

Bollss · 09/01/2021 13:09

@LemonSquirtInTheEyeOfLife

What an absolutely ridiculous thread. By the OP's logic, it would not be "ethical" to treat kids suffering from cancer with chemotherapy or radiotherapy, on the basis that they will suffer side effects & it may not work.
Except that is directly for the child's benefit and this isn't.
TheSeaMonkeyHasMyMoney · 09/01/2021 13:10

"If he gets ill she locks him in his room and brings food to the door."

I was rolling my eyes at your thread already - mostly because being afraid and following restrictions in a worldwide pandemic is NOTHING like your hypothetical situation - but when I got to this bit, I just had to reply.

This just not happening to a 6 year old! No one is locking a small child in their room on their own because of covid... If there is anyone who locks a small kid in a room on their own, that person was already abusive before covid and that behaviour just cannot be blamed on covid restrictions.

I saw a thread criricising someone for isolating their 16 year old kid within the house, so maybe some people are doing that with Older teens and young adults, but no one anywhere is doing that to their 6 year old.

Bollss · 09/01/2021 13:10

@noblegiraffe

There is nothing misogynistic in the OP

Where's the dad in it? I can't find him.

Reflects real life, no?

It's women who are taking on all the extra shit isn't it? It's women who will lose jobs over this. Men aren't mentioned because men aren't impacted half as much.

IloveJKRowling · 09/01/2021 13:14

I'd like to see some people offering realistic solutions for what we can do to bolster child mental health within our existing situation rather than just fostering dissatisfaction and discord.

People like noble have been advocating for safer schools with mitigation against airborne spread, for example. In countries where they've done this, children aren't being messed around and their lives changed at the last minute to the same extent as ours are.

Which is better from a mental health perspective?

Half time in school, half time home learning with masks - enabling the same, consistent level of education, socialisation and restrictions over a whole year (e.g. some parts of the USA). A real sense of community with children seeing that the local government as well as adults are doing all they can to ensure a consistent environment within the boundaries that a pandemic creates.

or

Full-time school from Sept-Dec with no airborne mitigation against a mainly airborne virus (so pretty much as normal plus handwashing, which many children realised was bonkers) then lockdown and 100% home learning because the virus is out of control and hospitals overwhelmed (with the consequent higher death rate and higher numbers of bereaved children).

Bitbusyattheminute · 09/01/2021 13:16

My kids are fairly happy and seem to be pretty unscathed by the whole thing. It's me that's really pissed off with it all and gets antsy if I spend too much time inside or not talking to my mates.

I suspect a lot of parents are projecting. Kids adapt a lot better than we do.

noblegiraffe · 09/01/2021 13:23

It's women who are taking on all the extra shit isn't it? It's women who will lose jobs over this. Men aren't mentioned because men aren't impacted half as much.

But in the OP its a woman who is 'abusing' her kid. The mother locking him in the room. It's not a mother heroically taking on the job of homeschooling while working herself, it's a woman destroying the mental health of her child for no reason.

In reality, many children are being parented by both parents during this pandemic.

That's why it's misogynistic.

noblegiraffe · 09/01/2021 13:24

Except that is directly for the child's benefit and this isn't.

Is your child completely isolated from the community in which they live? Mine isn't.

hamstersarse · 09/01/2021 13:26

@noblegiraffe

It's women who are taking on all the extra shit isn't it? It's women who will lose jobs over this. Men aren't mentioned because men aren't impacted half as much.

But in the OP its a woman who is 'abusing' her kid. The mother locking him in the room. It's not a mother heroically taking on the job of homeschooling while working herself, it's a woman destroying the mental health of her child for no reason.

In reality, many children are being parented by both parents during this pandemic.

That's why it's misogynistic.

One woman being abusive does not translate to all women

Give up on the fake arguments, it’s really tedious

SinisterBumFacedCat · 09/01/2021 13:33

It’s the mother who is being portrayed as neurotic and hysterical and the father is not mentioned at all. It is misogynistic.

When it comes to parents famously locking up and abusing their families I would say it’s a predominantly male thing. Fritzl anyone?

noblegiraffe · 09/01/2021 13:34

One woman being abusive does not translate to all women

Coming onto a female dominated website and posting a dreadfully over-the-top post about a woman abusing her child and then extrapolating it to the behaviour of mothers during this pandemic with the disclaimer

"I’m aware that many mothers on here will have done everything they can to mitigate the impacts of covid on their children"

Is definitely talking about women. Not men. Not parents.

Seasaltyhair · 09/01/2021 13:37

In reality, many children are being parented by both parents during this pandemic

Really Noble where have you got your stats from? I know three women who have been made redundant, all three were part time and had had child care issues.

Also here are a few links that you may find interesting, although it may go against your biased belief system some what -

www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-women-careers-idUSKCN24Q0OY?edition-redirect=uk

www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/news/articles/half-of-working-mums-say-childcare-during-covid-19-has-damaged-their-career

www.americanprogress.org/issues/women/reports/2020/10/30/492582/covid-19-sent-womens-workforce-progress-backward/

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/charts-coronavirus-setting-back-womens-careers-finances-decades/amp/

www.workingmums.co.uk/46-of-mums-being-made-redundant-blame-childcare-issues-during-the-pandemic/

I could go on - there are many many other people discussing it. The problem is Noble your scared to death now schools have actually shut mothers will start to come together to discuss the appalling effect closing schools down has had on their life. So now your trying to deny it’s even an issue when clearly it is

You shown your true colours there. You work part time and dont have any small children and none of this has effected you at all - yet you were shouting the loudest .

Well you got your greatest wish and schools were closed - you can sod off if you think you can start gas lighting women in to thinking this isn’t happening.

noblegiraffe · 09/01/2021 13:39

You work part time and dont have any small children and none of this has effected you at all - yet you were shouting the loudest

This is bullshit. Total bullshit. Hasn't affected me at all? Get in the bin.

Bollss · 09/01/2021 13:40

@noblegiraffe

Except that is directly for the child's benefit and this isn't.

Is your child completely isolated from the community in which they live? Mine isn't.

They would be if a lot of people got their own way. How is your child so involved in your community? When they're supposed to be isolated at home?
noblegiraffe · 09/01/2021 13:40

Really Noble where have you got your stats from?

That children have two parents? Are you saying that most children have literally zero parenting input from their father? That's not true.

noblegiraffe · 09/01/2021 13:41

How is your child so involved in your community? When they're supposed to be isolated at home?

They understand that what they are doing is part of a wider effort to keep people safe. Do your kids simply think they're staying at home for no reason? That would be odd.

noblegiraffe · 09/01/2021 13:42

Well you got your greatest wish and schools were closed

Point of correction, I wanted schools to stay open. I wanted them to be safer. I definitely did not want to be in this position.

Wish people would stop making stuff up about me. It betrays their agenda.

Bollss · 09/01/2021 13:46

@noblegiraffe

How is your child so involved in your community? When they're supposed to be isolated at home?

They understand that what they are doing is part of a wider effort to keep people safe. Do your kids simply think they're staying at home for no reason? That would be odd.

I mean he's 4 so I can explain until I'm blue in the face and hell still be sad he can't see his (young, healthy) grandparents. He knows there are germs, he knows I am not punishing him for the laugh, but realistically he doesn't five a shit about the wider community because he is 4 and for almost a year of his life the wider community has banished him to his home for being a child.
ParadiseLaundry · 09/01/2021 13:47

And we're not telling our children stay safe - we're saying protect society. Very different thing.

It's not the job of children to protect society or to protect old or vulnerable people from becoming ill. It's the job of society to protect children.

Bollss · 09/01/2021 13:47

@noblegiraffe

Really Noble where have you got your stats from?

That children have two parents? Are you saying that most children have literally zero parenting input from their father? That's not true.

Ah so you're ignoring that more women have been affected than men? Of course you are.
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