I’m just angry now

[BathFullOfEels]

They knew a vaccine would be the only way of getting us out of this mess. The country has already been locked down twice. Why, why, why didn’t they use this time to set up the logistics of distributing and administering these vaccines?

Why, why, why are the government allowed to decide who to prioritise to receive these vaccines when they were always going to distribute in a way that benefits them. Surely any government with an ounce of realism would be self aware enough to realise that they would make this vaccine distribution a political decision and instead allow the decision to be made by an independent third party who can distribute it in a way that would allow the country to get back to work. Instead it’s likely that months and months down the line we’ll all be forced to go back to work despite still be unprotected.

I have visions of pensioners being able to swan off on holiday over the summer while the workers of the country will still be unable to.

It’s an absolute fucking farce. Watching that press conference last night just finally made it snap for me - they genuinely don’t know what they’re doing at all

I agree with this. It should be emergency services, doctors, nurses, teachers, care home staff. Anyone that puts their life on the line for others. Then it should be the vulnerable including the elderly. I’m in group 4 so I hope I get it in February I want my life back.

I never said ‘deny access to treatment.’ Read my post. I said ‘take the care to them.’

If we aren’t putting them on ventilators, what else are we doing in hospital, could some of it be done at home to avoid overwhelming hospitals.

Cancer patients aren’t all admitted, for example. Many have care at home. A lot of these ad issuing for covid in very elderly patients presumably turn into palliative care?

I’m feeling concerned I’ve been offered a vaccine as an NHS worker because I work as admin in a hospital (mental health) I will have it as otherwise I’ll get bagged by work but in all honesty I’d give it to someone else in a higher risk job if I could.

Admissions

The answer is probably something to do with it being unethical and distasteful to have a grown up conversation about refusing hospital access to very elderly patients, regardless of the outcome. It does however appear to be considered ethical to steal children’s developmental years, ruin their mental heath, rob them of experiences and joy. Why is that?

It’s a very basic ethical situation known as the lesser of two evils. A year or so of hardship on a child is the lesser evil when compared to deliberately letting an elderly person die a worse death than a dog.

And don’t forget, many of these over 80yr olds were children during WWII. They suffered several years of hardship from Nazi bombs, rationing, parents dying on battlefields etc as children- all far worse conditions than children have suffered today due to Covid. It would not be even slightly fair to make this generation suffer more.

Thingybob ok if we vaccinated the young first do you think this will help the NHS become overwhelmed
Would you like to explain to the vulnerable groups that sorry we are just leaving you to take your chances

The hatred towards elderly people on here is mind blowing

This is true.

OP, I live in Mexico and the government plans to have all the over 60s vaccinated by the end of March. We are a small percentage of the population that account for 80% of the fatalities so once us old 'uns are vaccinated, life will start to return to normal for everyone.

That, to me, makes a lot more sense than vaccinating young people, especially when the vaccines are not guaranteed to prevent the transmission of the virus, only to lessen its effects.

@CountessFrog many people would prefer to die at home ( not all) but that is not always possible due to care needed and equipment etc as well as simply not enough staff when often people need round the clock care that cannot always be provided in a home setting

@thecatfromjapan no a grown up conversation is accepting what your saying and using fancy words doesn't hide the truth

non-voluntary euthanasia

? How is that different from murder?

People need medical people to provide care even if they are not in icu. People trained in positioning people to breathe more easily, trained in pain relief, trained in handling death which many nurses still find hugely traumatic. Most hospital wards are staged with nurses even though they are not icu. I mean it s nice that you are volunteering to look after all the old people but an professional is needed

BathFullOfEels "Why, why, why are the government allowed to decide who to prioritise to receive these vaccines" The clue is in the word 'government'.

"I’d prefer an 80yo to have to spend a year inside than a 5yo." and I'm sure 80yos have things they'd prefer that you did.

"If the government had actually used the time in either of the previous lockdowns to actually staff Nightingale Hospitals" It wasn't the right season to harvest the Medical Staff Trees. As you know fully grown and trained nurses can't be brought by Storks like babies are.

@PlanDeRaccordement

non-voluntary euthanasia

? How is that different from murder?

It's not

Luckily no one is being expected to spend a year inside

@Coyoacan

The hatred towards elderly people on here is mind blowing

This is true.

OP, I live in Mexico and the government plans to have all the over 60s vaccinated by the end of March. We are a small percentage of the population that account for 80% of the fatalities so once us old 'uns are vaccinated, life will start to return to normal for everyone.

That, to me, makes a lot more sense than vaccinating young people, especially when the vaccines are not guaranteed to prevent the transmission of the virus, only to lessen its effects.

This is the way it should work.

Ah I see cat from Japan has withdrawn their “non-voluntary euthanasia” post.

The preaching of eugenics on here is foul

Cancer patients aren’t all admitted, for example. Many have care at home. A lot of these ad issuing for covid in very elderly patients presumably turn into palliative care?

Palliative care at home takes a fair amount of planning and preparation, and even then it often doesn’t work out. If pain and distress cannot be controlled, the patient will have to attend hospice or hospital.

I’m shocked and saddened at some of the posts on this thread

@CountessFrog no one is saying its ethical on the kids its a necessary one at the moment
We can't simply just take care to all people in their homes , logistically impossible and maybe many don't survive but they deserve end of life care?
Plenty of children need hospital care as well for various reasons and we need the nhs to function
Plus if we just let it run rampant through the whole community we have no idea how many healthy people would then be affected or if the virus may change again.
This is all mostly about protecting the nhs , reducing the death rate , plain and simple.

@midgebabe
Exactly. Shocked to have read that.

@charlotterose but that is pretty much what we are doing apart from more over 70's and the cev bwfore over 60's here
And you have said thats how it should work on the lady from mexico post but here your saying it should be different ??? Makes no sense

It is daft that they are working out the logistics after the vaccines have been approved, and the only system in place is a very slow-moving system using exclusively a fraction of the healthcare professionals in the country (GPs). The GP-only system only works for the fragile and scarce Pfizer vaccine and is totally unsuitable for mass vaccination using the AZ Oxford vaccine.

Taking the priority list to extremes is also currently causing issues. They are working out the fractional relative risks of people within priority levels, then only inviting those people when the number of vaccines available now means they should be inviting far more people and vaccinating them through many more routes (pharmacies, drive-throughs, outdoor marquees etc).

It was clear that some type of vaccine was always going to be approved. The planning and logistics should have been in place.

I have a nurse relative, working in a hospital, desperately trying to volunteer/work overtime (either depending on how the system works) and is actually currently unable to do so. There are many healthcare professionals willing and able (many currently in work so no need to retrain etc) to vaccinate who are being turned away or can't even get through to anyone.

@CountessFrog

It does however appear to be considered ethical to steal children’s developmental years, ruin their mental heath, rob them of experiences and joy

If we need to determine who is more 'deserving', I personally know several 65+ adults (some well into their 80s) who continue to make a massive contribution to society. They may be semi-retired and not working 9 to 5 but are on advisory roles where their intelligence, technical knowledge, experience and overall wisdom is highly valued.

Sorry to be blunt, but some of the current 'darlings' being subjected to endless tutoring sessions may end up being completely unproductive and a burden to society much to the dismay of their massively pushy helicopter parents (who whinge constantly about the 'experiences' they have missed this year)

I'm relaying extreme scenarios here, obviously, but we should not generalise based on age if we want to go into the 'who is more worthy of treatment' debate (which I think we definitely shouldn't)

Also can people get out if their heads that boris and co did not draw up the list one evening.
Its from medical advice from people who have degrees and have studied such stuff , not the lady up the roads mum who thinks whatever.
Maybe grateful we are in a country that we will get the vaccine ,