I’m just angry now

[BathFullOfEels]

They knew a vaccine would be the only way of getting us out of this mess. The country has already been locked down twice. Why, why, why didn’t they use this time to set up the logistics of distributing and administering these vaccines?

Why, why, why are the government allowed to decide who to prioritise to receive these vaccines when they were always going to distribute in a way that benefits them. Surely any government with an ounce of realism would be self aware enough to realise that they would make this vaccine distribution a political decision and instead allow the decision to be made by an independent third party who can distribute it in a way that would allow the country to get back to work. Instead it’s likely that months and months down the line we’ll all be forced to go back to work despite still be unprotected.

I have visions of pensioners being able to swan off on holiday over the summer while the workers of the country will still be unable to.

It’s an absolute fucking farce. Watching that press conference last night just finally made it snap for me - they genuinely don’t know what they’re doing at all

@rosie1959

Thingybob how many elderly can totally sheild Not see anyone not have any careers get their own shopping delivered by ordering on line Care has been taken but they are obviously still catching the virus

I would think the majority in their 70s and 80s could. Lots would still have husband, wives or partners so aren't totally alone and shopping/medicines could be left at the door by relatives or volunteers. It's really only those that need care that have to have outside contacts.

As for care being taken, I'd argue it wasn't enough. How many of these older people spent Christmas Day with 2/3 other households?

@Mincepiehangover

OP couldn't agree more, been saying this for weeks and l cannot believe school staff aren't anywhere on the list

You clearly didn’t bother to read any of the thread before you posted. All has been explained many times over now. Even OP finally accepted it.

All these people who hate older people so much had better hope that they do as The Who said and ‘die before they get old’ because the lack of empathy and simple human consideration will come back to bite them . Dismissed and disregarded is accurate knittingaddict

If we’re going to talk in terms of value, you’d have to think about the relative merits of an older person, versus a serial killer or rapist, a person with a disability versus a an older person, a child with limited life expectancy etc.

There are some utterly vile people.

It will prevent or very much reduce transmission if the person who was vaccinated becomes immune.

It is possible that the vaccine will prevent illness but not infection so the immunised person could still become infected and pass it on without symptoms themselves.

Lots of scientists are optimistic that the vaccines will reduce transmission but we have to wait for confirmation from data.

The order of vaccination is just about the one thing this govt has done that I agree with with the exception that teachers and school staff should be vaccinated at the same time as NHS/care workers as its clear the risk to them is high too.

@Belladonna12

No, vaccinating the staff does not make care home residents safer. It is not known whether the vaccine prevents transmission, it is thought it does not. Therefore care home residents remain vulnerable.

It will prevent or very much reduce transmission if the person who was vaccinated becomes immune.

There's limited evidence is provides immunity.

What is absolutely definitely does, is reduce severity of illness, reducing the death rate and hospitalisation rate of infected people to virtually none.

Some of the attitudes on this thread towards the older and more vulnerable are nothing short of disgraceful.

I am going to have to hide this thread as it’s too upsetting.

It is possible that the vaccine will prevent illness but not infection so the immunised person could still become infected and pass it on without symptoms themselves.

It is possible but more likely if vaccinated people are immune they will not transmit the virus either . That's what happens with other vaccinations . It's the reason why primary schoolchildren are vaccinated against flu for example .The Covid vaccines haven't just been found reduce the number of people with symptoms. They also reduce the number of people who tested positive.

There's limited evidence is provides immunity.

That's not true at all.

It is possible but more likely if vaccinated people are immune they will not transmit the virus either.

I agree, but we need formal data to show that.

This possibly one of the ugliest threads I have ever read. And the most ignorant.

The priority for the vaccine must be those most at risk of dying or being hospitalised.

Everyone else can bloody well wait their turn.

"I have visions of pensioners being able to swan off on holiday over the summer while the workers of the country will still be unable to."

Why would that be the case? If the pensioners and vulnerable people are safe, the rest of us can come out of lockdown. We are in lockdown now because of the hospitals problem. Once pressure on the hospitals is relieved, we should be free again.

At the end of the day, the country voted in a government and that government are now dealing with this in the way they see fit.

If you don't like it, vote differently next time.

@Belladonna12

They do take into account people's quality of life and how many life years they will get from treatment all the time though

Was there some place where I said that was right? Yes, it already happens. But on an individual basis and with informed discussion with people (where possible) and their families. It does not happen as it is on this thread, where people are suggesting entire generations should be left untreated or to die because they are worth less than other people. That is not about "quality of life" for the person - it is about being willing to sacrifice others for your own quality of life. That is simply wrong.

Covid really has brought out the worst in people. I’m not keen on the human race right now, people being selfish and only putting themselves first, people thinking they are privileged and people moaning about stupid things like not being able to go on holiday. It’s just made me realise how horrible people can be.

It is a short step from deciding that people over 80 are undeserving, have no value and shouldn't get medical treatment, to expanding that to include people of all ages with disabilities, people with severe mental illness, people who haven't contributed more than they take out such as having chronic illnesses etc. Where do you stop?

As someone whose relative died from starvation and neglect in a hospital, simply because they were old and slightly demented and therefore was considered not deserving of treatment, I really worry about this attitude.

@GintyMcGinty

This possibly one of the ugliest threads I have ever read. And the most ignorant.

The priority for the vaccine must be those most at risk of dying or being hospitalised.

Everyone else can bloody well wait their turn.

It is very ugly.

I am reallly dissappointed in @MNHQ. I reported this thread but they said that they wanted to let it stand because they would "prefer if this sort of thread were challenged as part of the thread itself rather than deleted - saying that obviously we will still delete blatant ageism and are keen for those reports."

Fair enough I suppose but they could at least comment on it and remind people that ageism is not acceptable. Except it seems to be on MN.

@squashyhat

I am 60, fortunate to be retired, live rurally, have no contact with children but yes, I want my turn at the vaccination when it comes and have no intention of giving up my place, even if it were possible. And when it is safe to do so I will definitely be swanning off on holiday.

You do realise that when you get the vaccine it will not prevent you from actually catching covid or passing it in to other people who may not be so fortunate to have had the vaccine.

I am not sure that the rest of us plus the population of the sunnier country you holiday in will appreciate your selfish attitude. But hey so long as the 60 plus or 80 plus are OK screw everyone else.

And this post talks about the selfishness of mothers and the younger generation????

@PurpleDaisies

It is possible but more likely if vaccinated people are immune they will not transmit the virus either.

I agree, but we need formal data to show that.

It depends on what you mean by formal data. They are not going to wait for a randomised controlled trial that demonstrates the vaccine reduces transmission, if that's what you mean.

I think people are fundamentally upset because they don’t understand the complexities.

Even fairly intelligent people I know see the issue as removing all our liberties, destroying childhoods in order to prevent really elderly people from dying.

The issue is actually way more complex, but it seems to centre around those same very elderly people needing to use hospitals if they get sick. They won’t be considered for ITU, that’s not the issue, the issue is that ambulances will be called and beds taken up. I don’t know what their chances of survival are? I don’t know how many 80 year olds with covid are eventually discharged from hospital fit and well?

Because presumably that’s why you admit them in the first place; because there’s consensus that a hospital admission, however prolonged, will see them restored to health and living many more years.

I have a issue with this because I don’t know the data and I’m not sure it’s true. If we assume it’s not true, if these very elderly people don’t survive, (and there seems to be evidence that a lot of very old people die from this disease) why are they being admitted to hospital in an ambulance in the first place? Why aren’t we reorganising ourselves and taking care to them rather than bringing them into hospital? Why are we overwhelming our ambulance and hospital services if the outcome of this effort will be poor for them?

The answer is probably something to do with it being unethical and distasteful to have a grown up conversation about refusing hospital access to very elderly patients, regardless of the outcome.

It does however appear to be considered ethical to steal children’s developmental years, ruin their mental heath, rob them of experiences and joy.

Why is that?

If you are going to deny over 80s access to hospital care and treatment, you have to at least have a conversation about how much pain, suffering and distress to the elderly person and their relatives is socially acceptable. You have to have a conversation about euthanasia, otherwise you are going to allow a worse death for an elderly human than we consider acceptable for an animal.

I have had plenty of this type of conversation with patients and relatives in the context of terminal illness and home/hospice care.
But death from covid is a whole different scenario.

@Florelei

Some of the attitudes on this thread towards the older and more vulnerable are nothing short of disgraceful.

I am going to have to hide this thread as it’s too upsetting.

I agree. It’s appalling