Things go wrong in other countries, too

[avenueq]

I don't think it's helpful how irate people get about the UK government's failings. Yes there are plenty but this is a whole new situation and there are plenty of other countries making mistakes.
Before you ask - I'm not from the UK, but that means I have insight what happens elsewhere,
So to start -
The Eu has been slow in vaccine acquisition

In Austria, vaccinations could not start yet in some areas as not enogh needles (!) had been ordered

Countries with the most severe lockdown did not necessarily solve the Problem (Spain)

Countries who had supposedly excellent track and trace also had a second wave (Germany)

Anyone got other examples?

@OvaHere

Boris has made a lot of mis-steps with his dithering and flip flopping but I think it's partly because he doesn't want to strip the nation of it's civil liberties unless he has to,- as a politician he seems to lean towards libertarian thinking. Despite what you read on here sometimes the UK is a fairly liberal country compared to many.

In the longer term it might mean we eventually throw off the shackles of this slightly dystopian life easier than some other places. On the whole I consider it a good thing he's not keen on having the army patrolling the streets and citizens being arrested left, right and centre for transgressions. Even if that does cause some issues in the shorter term.

I'm maybe looking for a silver lining here but I do feel we are walking a tightrope between what is sensible and practical and what is authoritarian (as are many countries).

I completely agree. I think it is overall a good thing he takes time before taking away our liberties and preventing people from earning and children from going to school. That is a positive in my book. I value the freedom we have here.

@ILoveAllRainbowsx

Also, are death rates are higher than other European countries as we have the unhealthiest people and diet in Europe.

But we're not the highest. Italy and Belgium are higher and we've only just overtaken Spain, despite their strict lockdown.

Our govt have undoubtedly made a complete shambles of this but i agree OP, other countries' leaders aren't perfect either. The difference is that in this country everyone seems obliged to be negative. Even if something good happens - we're the first to start rolling out the vaccine - people can't resist pointing out that we paid extra for it because we opted out of buying with the EU (Never mind that Germany did something similar) or that it will all go wrong (which it might)!
Everyone loves to focus on doom and gloom - predicting empty supermarket shelves - but nobody notices when these pessimistic prophecies don't come to pass (so far!)

if corbyn was in charge and made similar mistakes there wouldn't be this huge uproar... I don't care what they will say... Its a brexit thing... Remoaners will have it in for this government forever because of it...

LMAO. Boris got a virtual free pass from the 75% right wing press on shaking hands with Covid patients and telling the country to keep attending mass events at the cost of thousands of lives. Feb - September, the UK had the worst economic performance of any country in the G20 by some distance. Corbyn would have been absolutely slaughtered for it and hounded out of office.

... rightfully hounded out of office.

In spite of the vitriol you're getting, OP, I think this is a good thread.

Wasn't it also said that in Italy, with their super-strict lockdown that made MN's lockdown zealots drool with envy, that it had the effect that the moment they were let out, the Italians flocked (MN and the media love that word) to the bars and so on, and so ended up with a much worse second wave?

I think this government is a uniquely incompetent government at a uniquely difficult time. However, it doesn't seem as if any of the larger Western democracies have done much better overall in terms of disease suppression. It seems as if things have been much better in Asia in terms of spread and death rate. There may be not only governmental, but also climatic and cultural issues to take into account. Every country is reacting on the hoof so it's impossible to separate climate, culture, rules, to work out which ones have really made the difference. It would be great to think that someone is working on this analysis now so we could use that information next time.

@sashagabadon
Indeed, but freedom ain’t worth shit when you’re dead. You need to find a balance. I think China’s severe lockdown was worth saving 1 million lives for (an estimate based on the fact that it’s killed 360,000 in the US). And also their economy is still rolling along nicely. Others may disagree.

Even if something good happens - we're the first to start rolling out the vaccine - people can't resist pointing out that we paid extra for it because we opted out of buying with the EU (Never mind that Germany did something similar) or that it will all go wrong (which it might)!
Everyone loves to focus on doom and gloom - predicting empty supermarket shelves - but nobody notices when these pessimistic prophecies don't come to pass (so far!)

Yep, people just lose interest once the 'we are doing the absolute worst' narrative shifts - people were furiously insisting that no other country would do something as stupid/dangerous/murderous as delaying second doses of vaccine, until other countries did start to consider the same thing, at which point it was no longer relevant, it would seem.

Indeed, but freedom ain’t worth shit when you’re dead.

I find this a chilling sentence. Do people not realise that this is exactly how all the world's most repressive regimes have been 'justified'?

[quote Cam77]@sashagabadon
Indeed, but freedom ain’t worth shit when you’re dead. You need to find a balance. I think China’s severe lockdown was worth saving 1 million lives for (an estimate based on the fact that it’s killed 360,000 in the US). And also their economy is still rolling along nicely. Others may disagree.[/quote]
But 66 million people aren’t dead or going to die though and yes some of those seem to love being told to stay at home but the overwhelming majority don’t. I’m glad their freedoms are protected as much as possible

@Cam77

China had the pandemic more or less beat three months before Europe started wearing masks. I was wearing a mask in March and getting lots of weird looks from other shoppers because I knew it wasn’t “just the flu”. Because I actually pay attention to what’s happening in other countries and read the science. Unfortunately the UK had Cummings and Boris.

Did you start wearing masks as soon as you hear about bird flu, swine flu, sars etc aswell as the science also said then that it was bad news...

The thing is, yes other countries have struggled, of course they have! In my country the response hasn't been perfect and the government has made some mistakes.

But I don't know any others who are as comically inept as the UK gov (maybe the US, but at least there state government can mitigate/ignore Trump's idiocy).

Leaving things to the last minute, changing minds from one day to the next, stupid 3-word mottos, stupid schemes to encourage people to congregate in restaurants, opening things up and refusing to close them again when infections clearly rise as a result... and so on.

The difference is that while almost every country has made some of these mistakes, the Tories have made ALL of them. And continue to do so. They honestly seem to be trying to do the worst job possible.

But I live here. So having a shit government here is what affects me
If anyone else also has a shit government who’s only motivation is “how can I/my mates make money from this?” Then I feel for them but it doesn’t make our government less shit.

The reality is that none of us have done particularly well. Germany does appear to have a lower death rate from lockdown one but currently their daily infection lack to deaths are implying it's a lot more deadly in Germany? My guess is that they are not testing anywhere near as many people and perhaps (no proof) they were recording deaths differently in the spring? Italy, France, Spain, Belgium all have similar fatality rates to us once adjusted for population despite different approaches.

Sorry to derail, but how the heck do I hide the covid forum on mobile??

One thing that annoys me about these discussions is when people come on to talk about how wonderful things are 'in my country'. Ask them what this perfect country is and they get all coy because they don't want to be 'outed'. To me this is poor form. I think if you are going to compare how crap Britain is to 'my country' then you need to say what this country is, otherwise there's no way for any of us to evaluate the claim.

Also, on the point that other countries aren’t paying much attention to the UK, on one point I think they may actually not be paying enough attention to what’s happening and that’s on the new variant B117. There are echoes of the start of the pandemic with failure to ramp up testing. On the plus side the travel bans came in quicker, but exponential growth is unforgiving.

But I don't know any others who are as comically inept as the UK gov...

Leaving things to the last minute, changing minds from one day to the next, stupid 3-word mottos, stupid schemes to encourage people to congregate in restaurants, opening things up and refusing to close them again when infections clearly rise as a result... and so on.

But all countries have done this. Others have also tried the tier system. The UK is not unique in any of these respects

But all countries have done this. Others have also tried the tier system. The UK is not unique in any of these respects

Did you even read the following sentence?

@IcedPurple

One thing that annoys me about these discussions is when people come on to talk about how wonderful things are 'in my country'. Ask them what this perfect country is and they get all coy because they don't want to be 'outed'. To me this is poor form. I think if you are going to compare how crap Britain is to 'my country' then you need to say what this country is, otherwise there's no way for any of us to evaluate the claim.

Evaluate by what measure? Deaths per million inhabitants?

The crux of the matter is despite your geographic location and political leadership - surely you must also also trust your own educated judgement as how to best mitigate the evolving invisible risks? Many in advance East Asian nations and seemingly as a society take more personal and by extension civic duty preventative actions seriously. They forever wore masks and social distanced while the rest of the world was still self entitled to ignore the face coverings and social distancing scientific evidence. See the difference in comparative Covid statistical correlations?

Did you even read the following sentence

Yes and?

Yes and?

It answers your post. Makes your post meaningless..?

@wanderings I went to Italy in summer and that wasn't true in my experience. They were very cautious and strict on mask wearing. Uncharacteristically rule following.

Certainly in the north of Italy where it was bad in March.

US friends are impressed but also a bit shocked at our response. Impressed at the combination of having two working vaccinations ready to go and furlough payments along with closing nonessential businesses but shocked at the nationwide lockdowns and stay at home orders but that, I guess, is down to a cultural thing and govt having too much power.

I point out our current face of the govt are completely inept but we have to remember behind the scenes are a lot of smart people fixing these fuck ups daily.