Things go wrong in other countries, too

[avenueq]

I don't think it's helpful how irate people get about the UK government's failings. Yes there are plenty but this is a whole new situation and there are plenty of other countries making mistakes.
Before you ask - I'm not from the UK, but that means I have insight what happens elsewhere,
So to start -
The Eu has been slow in vaccine acquisition

In Austria, vaccinations could not start yet in some areas as not enogh needles (!) had been ordered

Countries with the most severe lockdown did not necessarily solve the Problem (Spain)

Countries who had supposedly excellent track and trace also had a second wave (Germany)

Anyone got other examples?

The one I find so fascinating is that so many people are convinced that 'everyone just follows the rules, they don't whinge about it like we do' in every country except the UK and, possibly, the US. I have sometimes responded by just posting a list of stories about anti-mask protests/massive violations of rules in other countries - including (gasp!) Germany - and those posters always ignore it. A lot of people seem to get a lot of their sense of identity from the idea that they are a rare example of rule-following virtue cruelly condemned to live in a country where everyone else is too selfish and stupid to comply. It reminds me a bit of seventeenth-century puritans and their idea of themselves as a tiny flock who were too good for the world around them.

The gloom and doom attitude that our country is crap can be self-fulfilling. I wish we had a media that reported a bit more on things that we do well as a country

You've more people dead from Covid that civilians were lost in the UK in WW2, and Brexit...the shitshow that keeps on shitting. Hate to tell you, but the doom and gloom is the reality. What you may do well as a country is heaviliy overshadowed by the catastrophic messes that you have made in the last few years.

But we were in the unique position of being an island with shuttable borders, and being able to see what was happening in mainland Europe, but the govt squandered this knowledge. So in a way you can't compare what is happening here to other countries failings, as ours was a spectacular fuck up

A 20 mile stretch of water between us and the continent? Major travel hubs, major airports within easy reach. We are not New Zealand. Jobs, our economy and infrastructure is closely linked with the rest of Europe. It isn't easy to just shut all that down in a day

Again, land border with the EU

I don’t agree with this whole article but I thought it was an interesting read unherd.com/2020/12/the-british-centrists-deluded-worship-of-germany/

Yes every country has its issues.

(I do think the current PM is a shambles but he's what we currently have so I wish him well for all our sakes.)

Vaccine rollout here seems as good as if not better than many places elsewhere. Plus I'm amazed at the anti vax situation in other countries.

But really who'd be laughing at anyone. It's a truly weird outlook.

@herethereandeverywhere

HmmSureJan 'I'm glad I'm not living in the UK' is the vibe from most colleagues (perhaps not the Brazilians but I'd struggle to think of others who think their country is doing a worse job).

Thai and Indian friends definitely think their country is doing a far worse job. US friends are utterly consumed by their own country and it's political issues, unsurprisingly. We never get mentioned. German friends don't say much but a HT friend with duel nationality moved his family back to the U.K. after decades of living and teaching there due to feeling real fear at how things were moving politically there.

I guess we must just have very different friends and work colleagues, with varying views, obviously, but I find people tend to get the kind of views they solicit with their own stance so if you're expressing horror and anger then you'll most likely get similar views confirmed in response. Confirmation bias in short.

@Flaxmeadow

But we were in the unique position of being an island with shuttable borders, and being able to see what was happening in mainland Europe, but the govt squandered this knowledge. So in a way you can't compare what is happening here to other countries failings, as ours was a spectacular fuck up

A 20 mile stretch of water between us and the continent? Major travel hubs, major airports within easy reach. We are not New Zealand. Jobs, our economy and infrastructure is closely linked with the rest of Europe. It isn't easy to just shut all that down in a day

Northern Ireland (part of UK of GB & NI) borders with (Republic of) Ireland, in the EU.

@ILoveAllRainbowsx

Also, are death rates are higher than other European countries as we have the unhealthiest people and diet in Europe.

I'm not sure that's the reason - a contributory factor, but not the reason. Transmission in the first place is the major issue.

I think most are concerned about their own countries and flaws and not that interested in you.

The difference between where I'm from and you? seems to be that you are very quick to blame your politicians for everything from weather to global pandemic and 'pull yourself together and carry on' is something advertised on ancient posters not something being applied (on MN).

That said I consider BJ a mini Trump and wonder why you elected him (and yes i/we think you were mad about brexit but not exactly laughing).

The UK has some of the most capable scientific community but it is shame that so many members of society feel self entitlement to ignore Covid risks mitigation best practice. Superficial mask wearing is an issue and lack of moderation as to person so person close proximity contact too. Naturally the mixed Governmental messaging and always delayed reactionary make it up as you go along u turning rules are not particularly helpful in Covid public health nor economic management.

On balance with our own developed vaccines we can survive better than most nations. Just compare the UK to the USA. At least our political leadership believe in science and not think it is all a hoax or a bit of bleach and random drugs (which happens to include a vested interest) is the remedy as well as unnecessary masks or mass gatherings etc etc. However having someone better and more credible than the man stateside is very little consolation. The UK can do a lot better along the lines of stricter Australian rules to containment if not eradication. Nations like New Zealand who eradicated through strict measures have better lives and livelihoods outcomes.

I think Europe as a whole has handled it very badly. IMO, however, the UK government’s worst moments were at the beginning of the pandemic.

It was unforgivingly underprepared and took disastrous decisions which lost some people their lives and utterly sunk the economy (look at the second graph on this link) www.oecd.org/newsroom/g20-gdp-growth-third-quarter-2020-oecd.htm

From Feb - September the UK was the worst hit economically in the G20 by some way. That’s all on the government.

May/June onwards I can be more forgiving of (some) of the cockups, as yes, there are no easy decisions.

But Feb - March/April was a total shitfest of governance which had severe consequences.

Interesting interview in radio just now regarding why Israel is doing so well with vaccine roll out .They have one central hub and vaccine can be easily transported in an hour or two to satellite hub but most interestingly they have a free public health system but four providers instead of our one that people can pick and choose. So when they were given the job to vaccinate they compete with each other to prove to their customers they can do it the quickest.
As opposed to France that have done tiny numbers as apparently the bureaucracy is so much. You have a first appointment to discuss whether you want the vaccine due to high levels of vaccine scepticism and then a second appointment to actually get the vaccine!

Some Brits seem to positively enjoy wringing their hands at how shit the U.K. is at everything, and love to think that everyone in other countries either pities or despises us.

IMO it’s a largely English (not British) disease, and while not entirely confined to the English, I don’t think it’s very common to hear people slagging off their own country elsewhere. (I have been around the world quite a bit, in case anybody’s wondering.)

Though I do make a partial exception for certain French people I know, when the all too predictable summer air traffic control/rail strikes have been on.

Conversely, in one of the most blatantly corrupt countries a dd ever worked in, it was quite common for locals (who’d never been anywhere else!)to ask her whether it wasn’t the best and most beautiful place she’d ever been, surely she’d like to stay for ever?

Boris has made a lot of mis-steps with his dithering and flip flopping but I think it's partly because he doesn't want to strip the nation of it's civil liberties unless he has to,- as a politician he seems to lean towards libertarian thinking. Despite what you read on here sometimes the UK is a fairly liberal country compared to many.

In the longer term it might mean we eventually throw off the shackles of this slightly dystopian life easier than some other places. On the whole I consider it a good thing he's not keen on having the army patrolling the streets and citizens being arrested left, right and centre for transgressions. Even if that does cause some issues in the shorter term.

I'm maybe looking for a silver lining here but I do feel we are walking a tightrope between what is sensible and practical and what is authoritarian (as are many countries).

@Monkeytennis97

In Italy (Lombardy) they have different colours for different days to represent what they are allowed to do. Red, orange and yellow days which seem to change at random. My lovely Italian teacher friend thinks it's bonkers!

On the plus side teachers and pupils have all worn masks, teachers are given FFP3 masks and they've even knocked down walls in schools to make classrooms bigger to ensure SD.

The whole of Italy has the zones. They broadly correspond to tiers 1,2,3 and 4 with red being used over busy holiday periods when people are more likely to feel inclined to mix households and have parties (so with red zone restrictions they aren't permitted to) or at times when the R is over 1.

I live in Switzerland. Unsurprisingly the Swiss are concerned with what’s happening here and are certainly not watching every move the UK makes. Apart from some minor praise when the UK was first to roll out the vaccine, not much else has been said lately. We’re certainly not viewed as a ‘laughing stock’.

Switzerland is more concerned with it’s immediate neighbour’s situations (France & Germany), where they share borders, infrastructure and workers.

DH is French and we live close to France so we get a lot of French news too. They’re also mainly focused on themselves and indeed are worrying quite a lot about what will happen vis à vis the vaccine there, as 60% of the French population are refusing to have it!

People here have this weird thought that everything in this country should be done to perfection. Even tho no other western country does.

No other country has handled this well unless they are a big island with tiny population. ( effectively geographically socially distanced) iceland / austalia/ new zealand (and these countries have contributed nothing to the global effort to stop the virus) ... They are litterally shutting themselves away and waiting for the rest of the world to fix the problem.

The health service in some African countries is so poor. The chances are that there are huge amount of deaths but they don't have the tools prove that so it just gets swept under the rug.

If corbyn was in charge and made similar mistakes there wouldn't be this huge uproar... I don't care what they will say... Its a brexit thing... Remoaners will have it in for this government forever because of it...

Boris could litterally save a drowning baby from a river and people would moan about something!

China had the pandemic more or less beat three months before Europe started wearing masks. I was wearing a mask in March and getting lots of weird looks from other shoppers because I knew it wasn’t “just the flu”. Because I actually pay attention to what’s happening in other countries and read the science. Unfortunately the UK had Cummings and Boris.

Our death rate is 50% higher than Austria. And 100% (double) Germany.

We have the 10th highest death rate per 100k.

There's no structural reason it should be like that. Yes we have high population density and an ageing population but so do many many countries who have handled this better (Japan has had 29 deaths per 100k people vs UK with 1108).

A combination of ill preparedness, long term disinvestment in healthcare provision, poor, last minute decision making and bad communication.

The UK government has blood on their hands.

@Flaxmeadow

But we were in the unique position of being an island with shuttable borders, and being able to see what was happening in mainland Europe, but the govt squandered this knowledge. So in a way you can't compare what is happening here to other countries failings, as ours was a spectacular fuck up

A 20 mile stretch of water between us and the continent? Major travel hubs, major airports within easy reach. We are not New Zealand. Jobs, our economy and infrastructure is closely linked with the rest of Europe. It isn't easy to just shut all that down in a day

Not in a day I agree, but letting in flights from Italy and China when they were the most affected nations was complete madness. Job and the economy are in tatters now anyway!

Whataboutery?

Each should criticise their own.

I get that we should stay in perspective as opposed to what’s possible and what’s not but comparing failings as a way to minimise is not the way forward

Nations like New Zealand who eradicated through strict measures have better lives and livelihoods outcomes.

We are not New Zealand. There is no comparison. We are densely populated, we are very close, both geographically and our economy, to other densely populated countries in Europe. New Zealand's population is less than Yorkshire, in a country with a land mass larger than Britain

German school children have missed 'only' a total of 12 weeks of school. Here it's been 5 months and counting.