Teachers at far higher risk of covid than general population - New data

[noblegiraffe]

"Covid rates among schools staff in some areas are as much as four times the corresponding local authority average, Tes can reveal.

Figures for three councils obtained by the NASUWT teachers' union show that the staff coronavirus infections are far outstripping local rates, casting doubt on the government's repeated assertion that teachers are at no greater risk than other workers."

www.tes.com/news/exclusive-teacher-covid-rates-333-above-average

The government won't release the proper data, I wonder why. They've been given an extension to midday today to show the evidence that schools are safe, as part of a legal challenge by the headteacher unions. Good luck with that.

How can Boris say schools are safe if his mouth is moving, he's lying

@Yoshinori
Doctors, nurses, retail workers, construction workers, dentists, opticians, security guards are all exposed.
Yes they’re all still exposed, nobody is saying they’re not, but they ALL wear masks, some full PPE and can all distance wherever possible. Teachers, particularly in Primary, can’t do any of that.

@MakeWorkYourNewFavourite
MakeWorkYourNewFavourite I agree with you @Yoshinori*. I think some teachers really enjoy playing the victim.
I think this has to be one of the nastiest comments I’ve seen on Mumsnet. You utter bitches🤬

Piggy - is this what you were looking for?

www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/deathsofteachersfromcovid19

[quote LadyPenelope68]@Yoshinori
Doctors, nurses, retail workers, construction workers, dentists, opticians, security guards are all exposed.
Yes they’re all still exposed, nobody is saying they’re not, but they ALL wear masks, some full PPE and can all distance wherever possible. Teachers, particularly in Primary, can’t do any of that.[/quote]
This.

@IrmaFayLear
HOWEVER schools are now shut. It’s now the job of teachers to throw themselves into online learning and connecting with all their pupils to the absolute best of their abilities.
@irma they are not shut, they are open to keyworker and vulnerable children with in the class of my school, means 75% of the school claiming they need a place. I’ve got only 5 less children in my class than usual, so I’m still as much at risk as I ever have been. PLUS I’ve now got all the extra work to do to provide online learning as well. Don’t be such a prick.

Yep schools not shut. Sen schools fully open; we have about 20% who've chosen not to send in. My son's school is 50% capacity. My other's nursery is fully open.

I simply can't throw myself into online learning as I'm teaching classes all day, some of whom are at 100% capacity.

[quote LadyPenelope68]@MakeWorkYourNewFavourite
MakeWorkYourNewFavourite I agree with you @Yoshinori*. I think some teachers really enjoy playing the victim.
I think this has to be one of the nastiest comments I’ve seen on Mumsnet. You utter bitches🤬[/quote]

My god yes. We have no social distancing at all. Have finally been allowed to wear masks only when not teaching.

I thought masks didn’t actually offer protection to the wearer? My understanding (albeit limited) was that they are more about protecting those around the wearer?

In any case, Nicola Sturgeon seemed to confirm the other day that vaccinating the teachers was on the agenda in Scotland. I was very happy to hear this. I have a school aged child and she is devastated not to get back to school. However, you can’t realistically expect teachers to put themselves at risk for their jobs (and I can’t see any real argument that this is not the case). That is not what they signed up for.

I have however since heard some rumblings (and they really are only rumblings I would hasten to add) that some teachers don’t want the vaccine, shouldn’t feel forced into it so that the schools can “reopen” etc etc.

Is this likely to be a widely held view? Because that was frustrating to hear to say the least!

Is this likely to be a widely held view?

I don’t know anyone with that view!

That’s good to hear Appuskidu!

I have one girl in particular on my Facebook who is a teacher and just seems absolutely hell bent that the schools should be closed, teachers furloughed and that’s the end of it. She is one such “rumbler”.

[quote LadyPenelope68]@Yoshinori
Doctors, nurses, retail workers, construction workers, dentists, opticians, security guards are all exposed.
Yes they’re all still exposed, nobody is saying they’re not, but they ALL wear masks, some full PPE and can all distance wherever possible. Teachers, particularly in Primary, can’t do any of that.[/quote]
Unfortunately rates among healthcare staff are rising- rapidly. Our PPE actually offers very little protection. I have to see patients with confirmed or suspected covid in a surgical mask, visor, apron and gloves as I’m not going an aerosol generating procedure. Staff sickness is high (currently 1/4 of the staff on my rota are off isolating). I’m not saying that teachers shouldn’t have PPE- They should where practical. I think schools should have moved online with key worker provision earlier not go back for a day and I do think that those in early years and primary where masks and social distancing are not possible should be prioritised for vaccine. But saying we have PPE and aren’t as at risk as teachers just causes more divide when we should be working together to make things safe for us all.

I can’t find the link to the original letter but here is a BBC article- www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55537624

I think HCW are as open to people telling them to get on with and get over themselves (especially since Joe Public now thinks/ has been allowed to think they all have A grade PPE). I doubt very many stats are being gathered or shared on infection rates and deaths there either, thereby running the risk of minimising your risks form the usual gang of deniers and suck it up types.

That's it sofa. Did you fall down a rabbit hole looking for it!

[quote sofakingg00d]Piggy - is this what you were looking for?

www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/deathsofteachersfromcovid19[/quote]
Is this it? They aren’t now collecting it??

It would also probably explain why only 3 authorities returned info to the union. They don't have to collect it because of a 2000 Act and so they don't.

I can’t find the link to the original letter but here is a BBC article- www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55537624 .

Well that is FASCINATING. Look what is in their letter.

"In their letter, the consultants, doctors and nurses say healthcare workers are three to four times more likely to become infected than the general population."

And this is part of why they are asking for better PPE, because that risk level is unacceptable and deserves better protection.

Is mrsm43s going to come along and castigate them for misrepresenting their risk and say 'well they're at the same risk level as teachers so should just suck it up'? Somehow I think those sorts of complaints only apply when it's teachers.

Also, I wonder where they got their data from. Was it part of the same council FOI?

It's not a zero sum game and it's appalling that HCPs are expected to work with covid postive (or suspected) patients without proper face fitting masks (not the flimsy blue ones you get 100 in a pack) and better PPE generally. Just as we haven't heard enough about the high risk to teachers, we haven't heard enough about this in the media. I was under the impression the PPE problems had been sorted and anyone working in this sort of role would have proper PPE that offered real protection.

It's also appalling that teachers are expected to work without ANY masks. It's appalling for teachers and actually for parents too. Some teachers might prefer not wearing a face mask, but just as I have to wear a face mask all the time if I'm in a hospital or supermarket, I'm not that keen on some teacher's decision about not wearing a face mask means a child brings it home to their CEV parent who dies. Unless there's a legitimate reason not to wear a mask, they just should be worn, like seatbelts or like it's not now legal to drink and drive. Someone's desire to drink and drive doesn't outweigh the reduced risk to everyone else if they can't . It's basic and not onerous risk mitigation.

I'm hoping frontline HCPs are getting priority for vaccines - of the doctors I know many have already had their first dose.

Teachers should be on the priority vaccine list, but this shouldn't replace mask wearing as they simply don't know how the vaccine alters transmission yet .

I think it's very worrying that even now teachers are in schools, in some cases with still quite large classes, without any PPE. Whilst the infection growth rate is vertical pretty much .

@noblegiraffe

I can’t find the link to the original letter but here is a BBC article- www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55537624 .

Well that is FASCINATING. Look what is in their letter.

"In their letter, the consultants, doctors and nurses say healthcare workers are three to four times more likely to become infected than the general population."

And this is part of why they are asking for better PPE, because that risk level is unacceptable and deserves better protection.

Is mrsm43s going to come along and castigate them for misrepresenting their risk and say 'well they're at the same risk level as teachers so should just suck it up'? Somehow I think those sorts of complaints only apply when it's teachers.

Also, I wonder where they got their data from. Was it part of the same council FOI?

I’m not sure how they got their data but seeing how many people are off at the moment with it worries me. I think the vast majority of people assume we have fantastic PPE- that we all get the FP3 masks, gowns etc. But the truth is we don’t. I’ve seen some here post to the HCPs ‘well you have PPE’ so you are less risk than me when the actual reality is not correct. I am taking a history, examining and performing procedures on know covid positive patients with not very much more than people on the street to get. This PPE issue hasn’t been widely publicised- when rates were low it wasn’t as much of an issue but now we are spending much more of our shifts in contact with positive patients. Part of the stress on the NHS at the moment is not only the number of beds but also the number of staff off with COVID. Tbh I don’t see PPE being made a big issue, it is to us but it isn’t being picked up by the media in a big way. I don’t think the public would support us if we choose to take action over it either- even though our workplace is unsafe. While we are being prioritised for the vaccine we don’t know if this stops is spreading it so even though it will protect us from getting seriously ill, it may not actually help the staff shortages or it spreading in hospital as we may still be testing positive. Hopefully it will prove to prevent you from spreading it to but that is unknown. The roll out at the moment also varies by trust- I can’t have the Pfizer vaccine which my trust offers- I’m hopeful that I can have the Oxford one but my trust doesn’t offer that right now.

I fully support teachers and the action they took handing in their section 44 letters. I agree that schools need to be made safer- PPE etc- mainly to reduce the spread. I also think that schools needed to move online sooner to reduce spread. Children don’t exist in isolated bubbles- there are vulnerable parents and carers to think of.

I’m just sad when I see teachers telling me that my job is safer than theirs as it becomes a them against us when it shouldn’t be. We should be supporting each other as right now the government is handling this appallingly and have been the whole way through.

I agree with every word moon

I genuinely don’t think that teachers think they are at less risk than a nurse on a covid ward because the nurse has PPE.

I think the ‘well at least you have PPE’ response is more about the fact that it has been acknowledged that nurses are at risk and therefore they have been provided with PPE in an effort to mitigate that risk.

It’s ‘yes, we are both at risk but you have been given PPE and we’ve been told we’re not at risk and to carry on as normal’.

I could be wrong of course, but that’s how I read it.

I fully support any effort by healthcare providers to secure better PPE as what they currently have is inadequate for the risks they face.

[quote LadyPenelope68]@IrmaFayLear
HOWEVER schools are now shut. It’s now the job of teachers to throw themselves into online learning and connecting with all their pupils to the absolute best of their abilities.
@irma they are not shut, they are open to keyworker and vulnerable children with in the class of my school, means 75% of the school claiming they need a place. I’ve got only 5 less children in my class than usual, so I’m still as much at risk as I ever have been. PLUS I’ve now got all the extra work to do to provide online learning as well. Don’t be such a prick.[/quote]
Hang on. Teachers wanted schools to shut! Now they’re shut and everyone is still moaning!!! My kids are not in school. Six hours a day is now dedicated to teaching them and nothing else. Whilst im fucking depressed about that I at least thought somebody somewhere was now delighted. But no. Everyone still fucking moaning.

Teachers wanted schools to shut!

Teachers are not one homogeneous bunch. All the teachers I know wanted schools open safely. Remote teaching isn’t much fun for teachers as well as parents. Plus there’s the new shit show coming now of how to award GCSEs and a levels after last years debacle.

@noblegiraffe

I genuinely don’t think that teachers think they are at less risk than a nurse on a covid ward because the nurse has PPE.

I think the ‘well at least you have PPE’ response is more about the fact that it has been acknowledged that nurses are at risk and therefore they have been provided with PPE in an effort to mitigate that risk.

It’s ‘yes, we are both at risk but you have been given PPE and we’ve been told we’re not at risk and to carry on as normal’.

I could be wrong of course, but that’s how I read it.

I fully support any effort by healthcare providers to secure better PPE as what they currently have is inadequate for the risks they face.

While there are those who understand this and believe the same as you @noblegiraffe there are others I’ve seen who fully believe that our PPE is adequate, that they are at much greater risk than us. Like I said I fully support teachers, support staff and nursery staff and their wish for PPE/early vaccine where appropriate and really don’t want to it to be a them versus us thing. I just don’t think teachers etc are helped when some say that sort of thing as even if it is meant as ‘at least your risk is acknowledged’ kind of thing. A- the PPE is often inadequate and we are still at big risk and B- the statement does come across as you have PPE stop complaining on many threads.