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Original poster

Teachers at far higher risk of covid than general population - New data

213 replies

noblegiraffe · 05/01/2021 08:12

"Covid rates among schools staff in some areas are as much as four times the corresponding local authority average, Tes can reveal.

Figures for three councils obtained by the NASUWT teachers' union show that the staff coronavirus infections are far outstripping local rates, casting doubt on the government's repeated assertion that teachers are at no greater risk than other workers."

www.tes.com/news/exclusive-teacher-covid-rates-333-above-average

The government won't release the proper data, I wonder why. They've been given an extension to midday today to show the evidence that schools are safe, as part of a legal challenge by the headteacher unions. Good luck with that.

OP posts:
sofakingg00d · 05/01/2021 17:46

Wasn't the last ONS report the one that split teachers into three categories - where 'unknown teacher' was higher than all of the other categories?

Piggywaspushed · 05/01/2021 17:46

I now rather annoyingly can't find the FOI request with the really terse reply saying 'we don't have that information' . They went on to say 'it's complicated and sounds like hard work because we'd have to do this, that, the other'.

OK, I paraphrase...

Piggywaspushed · 05/01/2021 17:52

sofa the link above your comment is really interesting on this.

herecomesthsun · 05/01/2021 17:52

@donquixotedelamancha

Most of the mitigations suggested by teachers were hugely detrimental to pupils education and wellbeing and to the parents ability to work. Things like remote working or part time education simply aren't things that could be implemented without extremely good reason because of the amount of detrimental impact they would cause.

Many mitigations (like PPE, thermometers on doors and hiring extra staff for a year) are not detrimental at all.

Those that were detrimental are not as detrimental as having to fully shut schools. Part time learning for some groups in a planned way could be much higher quality than the chaos we've had.

Indeed.

Smaller classes and more space would be very beneficial to learning.

They even have those in private schools!

And we have some of the largest classes in Europe,

This would be a win win.

Are the not-yet-convinced-by-noble's-sterling-efforts posters not ashamed that some of the developing nations in Africa did a better job than us of implementing WHO guidelines for safe school re-opening?

Or do all your kids go to private schools anyhow?

itsgettingweird · 05/01/2021 18:31

What it also shows is that, if replicated across other areas, then even if it turns out that NHS workers or care home workers or bus drivers have a similarly high risk, they cannot re-open schools as they were. There are measures that can easily be taken to lower the risk to school staff that are currently not being taken on the basis that they don’t need to be taken. Well clearly they do. Measures have been taken to protect other workers going about their jobs, it is unacceptable to put a group of people at higher risk without making any effort to lower it.

This.

We need data for all areas to make all areas as safe as possible for all workers.

But talking about schools and teachers is purely that. When other threads are about other professions I'd not expect a race to the bottom.

itsgettingweird · 05/01/2021 18:33

@borntobequiet

Given that the highest rate of infection is among school aged children, it would be very surprising if school staff, who were exposed daily to sometimes hundreds of them, in conditions almost designed to facilitate the spread of the virus, were also not found to have high rates. What is interesting is the extreme reluctance of some people to grasp or acknowledge this. My predictions: the evidence quoted by the OP will over time be shown by additional evidence to be accurate, if not understated, and that even in the light of additional overwhelming evidence, some people will continue to deny it.
I'd take that bet!

Noble has been scarily accurate up until now!

QueenoftheAir · 05/01/2021 18:38

Covid rates among schools staff in some areas are as much as four times the corresponding local authority average, Tes can reveal.

Why am I not surprised?

Conditions in most schools are just ideal for the transmission of the virus: no masks, no social distancing, large groups in confined closed spaces, a lot of talking ...

Itisasecret · 05/01/2021 18:40

Well, no shit.

QueenoftheAir · 05/01/2021 18:40

Noble, you deserve a medal for all the work you have done on this in the face of relentless teacher bashing, gaslighting, and personal attacks.
Those people need to have a long hard look at themselves.

This. Times ten, or a thousand.

ChloeDecker · 05/01/2021 18:49

Thank you for highlighting the article noble

I completely understand why some posters take the ONS data the way that they do.

The problem is that most just hear the sound bite reported and haven’t analysed the data that is being referred to.

That other industries were grouped together as one but education staff were not and if you combine the categories primary teachers, secondary teachers, teachers (unspecified) (because very rarely do teachers on forms write ‘secondary’ or ‘primary’ teacher-we usually just put ‘teacher’) and then you will see education as a whole overtakes supermarket workers, never mind support staff and nursery workers in education adding to that too.

That’s why the complaint to ONS was upheld but this has been ignored in main stream media.

The data referred to in the OP only highlights more, the scandal of not collecting more of this data in the past couple of months for all occupations and for what has been collected, is being surpressed.

They can’t be afraid of the results can they???

inquietant · 05/01/2021 18:54

Agree this is not a moot point. This is really serious and we all need to know the reality about schools.

Positivevibesonlyplease · 05/01/2021 19:20

Finally, some data to back up what we all knew. A doctor on Radio 5 Live today said that she wouldn’t fancy going into a school without full PPE. She felt that even very young children could get used to seeing their teachers in full PPE, if they were taught about it properly. She also felt that teachers could be likened to those who ‘picked off the rubble’ at Chernobyl - ie. doing their job without any protection and like lambs to the slaughter. She was excellent and voiced exactly what I’ve been thinking. It was good to finally have validation for what I’ve been feeling for months - made me feel very emotional. FFS make all children wear masks at school too!

mrshoho · 05/01/2021 19:54

Who remembers a while back the photos of perspex screens in Thai schools? The outrage from some posters at the thought of their child being caged if that were to be implemented here. So many quite simple and relatively low cost options but we got nothing. It was only really when bubbles and classes started being sent home that masks were considered and allowed in areas of our secondary schools. When you step back and think about the way our schools were reopened in a pandemic of a highly infectious virus with no vaccine it is no surprise to anyone. How this government can only now admit that schools are one of the main vectors when the graphs showed the rapid increases from September. How even yesterday they were saying it was absolutely fine for schools to be open. Only to be told at 8pm last night we were 21 days away from complete collapse of the NHS.

Fluffyowl00 · 05/01/2021 20:57

I know. Unfortunately the cynic in me wonders if things will be any different when we reopen in March? Sigh.

mrsm43s · 05/01/2021 20:58

Can I point out again, that the article quoted entirely misrepresents the data used.

There is no evidence, from the data quoted in the article, that teachers are more at risk than anyone else who works outside the home, and I am surprised that anyone with any knowledge of statistics would quote or reproduce it. My professional reputation would be in tatters if I'd tried to pass something like that off as true.

It's journalistic spin, to prove an agenda, that is all.

That doesn't mean to say that teachers aren't more at risk. It just means that, as yet, there aren't any available statistics that actually prove it.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 05/01/2021 21:09

There is no evidence, from the data quoted in the article, that teachers are more at risk than anyone else who works outside the home

It didn’t claim that they did. Weird that you keep pretending that was what was being claimed. The claim being made is supported by the data provided.

And as I said in my OP, we really need the government to provide proper data.

OP posts:
RuleWithAWoodenFoot · 05/01/2021 21:15

Most of the mitigations suggested by teachers were hugely detrimental to pupils education and wellbeing and to the parents ability to work. Things like remote working or part time education simply aren't things that could be implemented without extremely good reason because of the amount of detrimental impact they would cause.

Because those things didn't happen, pupils education has definitely been affected and parents are definitely having issues with working. So you know. And since so many parents are pushing the boundaries of KW provision, bubbles will continue closing really regularly, and what do you know... education and parent ability to work will be affected. At short notice. And in a much more restrictive way than rotas would have provided.

I just don't get why people can't see that teachers do know about this stuff. You'd trust a doctor to talk to you about medical stuff, and listen to their opinion, why not a teacher about educational stuff? Why be so determined to have your children in class with us, being influenced by us, if you think we are sk untrustworthy and professionally inept? It makes no sense at all.

starrynight19 · 05/01/2021 21:25

This is really not a moot point.

Most primary schools are currently open with at least half the school attending as keyworker / vulnerable. This is not ignorance by the government it’s complete disregard for the profession. Keep telling us ‘it’s safe’ is beyond patronising and they are responsible for schools adding to the massive problem we have now in communities.

mrsm43s · 05/01/2021 21:50

Come on @noblegiraffe, it's very clear that both the article, and your posting of it are meant to lead people to believe that teachers have been proved to be more at risk simply because they are teachers. And looking at the comments on this thread, most people have made that assumption.

There is currently no available data that I have seen that supports that theory.

I agree that more data should be available. But in the absence of it, we shouldn't be deliberately misrepresenting data in order to mislead people to believe that the data tells us something that it actually doesn't.

ChloeDecker · 05/01/2021 22:09

@mrsm43s

Come on *@noblegiraffe*, it's very clear that both the article, and your posting of it are meant to lead people to believe that teachers have been proved to be more at risk simply because they are teachers. And looking at the comments on this thread, most people have made that assumption.

There is currently no available data that I have seen that supports that theory.

I agree that more data should be available. But in the absence of it, we shouldn't be deliberately misrepresenting data in order to mislead people to believe that the data tells us something that it actually doesn't.

I disagree with you. It isn’t other posters who have made an assumption.
JanuaryChill · 05/01/2021 22:26

Was thinking, in fact shouldn't teachers be "less at risk" than the general population as they are majority female (more so in primary of course)? So in fact the increase in risk for teachers could be even greater when compared to the general female population.

borntobequiet · 05/01/2021 22:33

You'd trust a doctor to talk to you about medical stuff, and listen to their opinion

You’d think so, wouldn’t you? But I’ve read on a number of occasions that this isn’t necessarily so. In fact some years ago I covered it with a Y12 Critical Thinking class. When I first asked them whose advice they would prefer to follow if they had a medical issue (eg frequent headaches), a trusted relative or a GP, about 80% said the relative, with the main reasons being that they knew them better and the relative “might” have personal experience of the problem (hence being asked).
The people who immediately said the GP simply didn’t understand this reasoning and were gobsmacked. I learned a lot from these lessons, not least, that many young people have no clue what formal medical training entails.
sciencebusiness.net/healthy-measures/news/uk-people-trust-medical-advice-family-and-friends-more-evidence-research

PolarExpressislate · 05/01/2021 22:39

I am sure Police Officers are very exposed and do not have PPE, but as usual it's all about the teachers.

Care assistants are pretty much working in a lot more hazardous conditions than teachers, especially in private homes where there is no PPE, and a higher rate of Covid.

PolarExpressislate · 05/01/2021 22:40

@MakeWorkYourNewFavourite

I agree with you *@Yoshinori*. I think some teachers really enjoy playing the victim.
Agreed, especially on here, it's pathetic